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DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

simonwillison.net

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Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#201

Post by Bridged7756 »

johnbarron wrote: post #175
cedws wrote: post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

Silicon Valley has do to dirty tricks now. Next phase is they win.... "A Dark-Money Campaign Is Paying Influencers to Frame Chinese AI as a Threat" - https://www.wired.com/story/super-pac-backed-by-openai-and-p...

It wouldn't surprise me the US government is behind it. As it wouldn't surprise me the government of China is subsidizing those OS models. A lot of things at play, and all over a huge bubble.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#202

Post by [deleted] »

ls612 wrote: post #191
zozbot234 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really distill a model without access to the internal weights. You could train on chat logs, but that's absolutely not the same thing, it doesn't even come close to comprehensively "extracting" the model's capabilities. And everyone does that in the industry anyway ever since ChatGPT was first released, some versions of Opus even claimed to be DeepSeek if you prompted them in Chinese.

Calling it distillation does however make normies go along with it when they inevitably add all the Chinese labs to the entities list to pad Dario and Sam’s pockets.

[deleted]

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#203

Post by gspetr »

segmondy wrote: post #155
ghm2180 wrote: post #90

I've been using the planning framework from Matt Pocock on very typical brownfield code. I use a harness over claude code, this is so cheap that I would be tempted to mirror my initial prompt to it and compare their responses to the task.

Do you have a link to this?

https://github.com/mattpocock/skills/blob/main/skills/produc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QFHIoCo-Ko

Also, check his youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattpocockuk

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#204

Post by [deleted] »

deaux wrote: post #14

I'm surprised that people here don't care at all about these models openly training on your data, especially if you use them straight from the model developer. Whereas things like "GitHub now automatically opts everyone into using their code for model training" get hundreds of justifiably angry comments, I never see this brought up anymore on posts like these talking about using Chinese models through OpenRouter. Thi…

[deleted]

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#205

Post by Footprint0521 »

cedws wrote: post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

Buying it now to test this out, I’ve been looking for a model that doesn’t treat me like a child lol

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#206

Post by hvb2 »

sanex wrote: post #177
oneseven wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably worried about liability. Let's say that Oracle finds out you reverse engineered their DB using Gemini. You can be sure they will sue Google. Not just for providing the tools, but you could make the argument that it's actually Gemini doing the reverse engineering, and on Google's hardware no less.

We need that lawsuit to happen already so we can establish precedent. The person in the driver's seat of the Tesla should be at fault. The engineer using the llm should be at fault. The person behind the gun not the manufacturer should be at fault.

> The person in the driver's seat of the Tesla should be at fault.

I don't think this is a good analogy. For Tesla right now it might fly. However, when their software gets to waymo level of autonomy, I would expect liability to shift to the manufacturer.

If anything, I think that would be the true proof of a company trusting their software to allow for autonomous driving

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#207

Post by mistrial9 »

grassfedgeek wrote: post #171
cedws wrote: post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

Are you kidding? Ask this question and see what answer you get: What famous photo depicts a man standing in front of a line of tanks?

[flagged]

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#208

Post by igravious »

sanex wrote: post #138
cedws wrote: post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

We have an enterprise cursor account so I can try all the mainstream models. Using composer 2 on our own code which I obviously have the source code for I couldn't get it to turn on a debug flag to bypass license checks while I was troubleshooting something. Infuriating. It was like that old Patrick from SpongeBob meme. I don't understand why we would turn the models into law enforcement officers. Things that are ill…

to what does the "it" in "I couldn't get it to turn on a debug flag" refer to?

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#209

Post by himata4113 »

grassfedgeek wrote: post #171
cedws wrote: post #113

The biggest differentiator for me: DeepSeek just does what I ask. I've tried using both GPT and Claude for reverse engineering recently, both refused. I even got a warning on my OpenAI account.

Are you kidding? Ask this question and see what answer you get: What famous photo depicts a man standing in front of a line of tanks?

The photo depicts "Tank Man" which was taken on June 5, 1989 during the Tiananmen Square protests. v4-pro and v4-flash roughly answer the same way on openrouter.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#210

Post by gertlabs »

DeepSeek V4 Flash is the most cost effective model we've tested.

We had to really understand why it outperformed DeepSeek V4 Pro (although even on unreliable model cards, Flash was very close to Pro). Pro is slower and smarter in one-shot reasoning problems, but less effective with tools and therefore less performant in long horizon agentic tasks (especially with custom tools it was not trained on).

Benchmarks at https://gertlabs.com/rankings

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