Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Maladaptive Frugality

herbertlui.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 322 posts

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#201

Post by engineer_22 »

Mezzie wrote: post #149
engineer_22 wrote: post #124

I am a consulting engineer serving small communities in Central New York. Ostensibly my job is to design construction projects to fix a problem, but most of my job is actually helping the community figure out how to pay for the fix. My greatest frustration is Maladaptive Frugality. There are whole communities with this mindset, and it takes a lot of effort to communicate the reality to the town/village board that the…

That reminds me of the roads in my city. They're disgusting . The reason is because the city charter mandates they have to take the cheapest bid. Of course the quality is crap and none of the fixes last! Fortunately, we just changed that, so hopefully it will get better.

If you'll allow me the grace to explain, I think the issue is more complicated than it seems at first glance.

Procurement policy in USA is usually "lowest responsible bid", meaning you can reasonably expect that the contractor can complete the work without going bankrupt.

With respect to the work itself, a competent civil engineer will provide for appropriate materials and handling to ensure the contractors are supplying a substantially similar product. Most repaving jobs in the city go no further than resurfacing - remove the top 1-2 inches and install 1.5 - 2.5 inches new.

This treats the symptoms, not the problem!

I'm assuming you're in a wet climate. The problem is the subbase is reflecting strain through the road surface, initiating cracks which are openned further by weather. To noticeably improve, you'd have to remove the subbase to great depth and replace with engineered fill, multiple layers of geotextile, storm drainage improvements, then a full depth asphalt section. Not only are the materials for this work expensive, but it represents a different order of magnitude of labor, the number 1 cost driver. Sometimes the tax base is so weakened that the city cannot even keep up with resurfacing and you end up with roads like you describe.

The economics on this are difficult to assess because everyone knows the roads are forcing more car repairs and accidents, and generally rob you of bliss... but the calculus to improve the roads via property taxes is not straight forward, i.e. it's political.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#202

Post by SoftTalker »

engineer_22 wrote: post #128
arjie wrote: post #8

A wife is a useful thing to have in this respect, not because they tend to profligacy, but because this kind of thing is much easier to detect and fix in someone close to you than in yourself. Both my wife and I have lived frugal lives at various times[0] and I feel much happier with the degree of spending we have now. I'm reminded of the intelligent corvids in Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Memory where the sum of…

> A wife is a useful thing to have in this respect, not because they tend to profligacy, but because this kind of thing is much easier to detect and fix in someone close to you than in yourself. I think what you mean is, a wife/spouse can help you see maladaptive patterns that you're blind to? I don't think you propose that you can "fix" your spouse's behavior?

Spouses can "fix" behaviors in each other (up to a point) if they are each ammenable and open to it.

You can't "fix" someone who doesn't want to be fixed, however. And you really can't change deeply engrained personality traits. This will just lead to conflict and stress. This is what pre-marital counseling will try to discover, and it's too bad more people don't do it, as it would go a long way to reducing the number of unhappy marriages.

This doesn't mean that opposites cannot have happy lives together, but they need to accept each other for who they are and not be unhappy that the other person cannot change "for them."

A lot of spousal disagreement tends to come down to issues about money though, so a frugal person paired with a spendthrift will probably have a tough go of it.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#203

Post by wing-_-nuts »

mock-possum wrote: post #43
amarant wrote: post #40

I do something kinda similar, I guess it counts as maladaptive frugality? Whenever I have something a little extra in my fridge, most often Italian prosciutto, I refrain from eating it, instead saving it for a "special occasion" even though it is, like, my favourite thing in the whole world. Eventually I have to throw the mouldy prosciutto away because I was too frugal to eat it. I'm practicing though, learning to ea…

Exactly the key of mindset that drives me to play through entire RPGs without ever popping a single item. It is essential that I collect 99 potions, and never consume even 1.

I forget what game it was, but I came to a point in the game where there was just an insane difficulty spike. Like I literally could not progress, and I couldn't change difficulties without starting a new game.

Then I remembered I had these strong health potions I'd carried through most of the game. I burned through my entire stockpile but I made it! It felt like the devs were saying 'no, you idiot, we put those items in the game for a reason, use them!'

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#204

Post by wing-_-nuts »

ehnto wrote: post #44
nneonneo wrote: post #13

For some, I think there’s that satisfaction that comes with saving money (like you’re somehow “cheating the system”, even when it’s just a coupon that gets you to buy something you wouldn’t otherwise). In some cases, that satisfaction grows with the amount of time or effort expended to save the money in the first place, which is ironic because that money-value-of-time probably far exceeds the actual amount saved. Pra…

I've always found the "time is money" hourly rate comparisons a bit contrived, because I can't actually trade my every waking hour for an hourly rate. The reality for most people is that the trade-off is actually between time spent on looking for bargains, or time doing something else that doesn't make any money.

Eh, I value my time at a third my hourly comp. It helps me feel less guilty about hiring something out instead of doing it myself, or driving and paying for parking instead of taking transit and taking 2x as long.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#205

Post by SoftTalker »

Nifty3929 wrote: post #151

To me this is so much about where you focus your attention. Even from a purely financial perspective. Mental space dedicated to watching your expenses is space you aren't using to improve your top-line. Some people are very proud of being frugal, spending time optimizing expenses - while earning far less than they could otherwise because they don't spend any mental energy on how to earn more. Meanwhile others are spe…

Not everyone wants to live a life "focused on earning more money."

I have a low salary considering my experience in the tech sector. However I have a job that is low stress, has good benefits, and a very low risk of layoff or downsizing.

I don't spend money on a lot of things that other people do. I drive an old car. I have an old phone. My home computer is probably 10 years old. I don't buy expensive clothes. I cook at home, and rarely go to a restaurant or bar. I do not pay for entertainment such as movies, sports, theatre, travel. None of that is interesting to me.

I don't spend time "watching expenses" I just naturally spend very little. When I have extra money, I just save it. The idea that it is there "in case I need it" or ultimately for my kids to inherit is more rewarding to me than anything I might spend it on.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#206

Post by jandrewrogers »

square_usual wrote: post #178
jandrewrogers wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FIRE is achieved primarily by not buying a lot of "stuff". Living a great life and having incredible experiences is relatively inexpensive and you don't need a lot of expensive stuff to do it. If you are being miserable then you're doing it wrong. FIRE should really just be a continuation of what you are already doing, just with less responsibility and financial risk. It isn't about saving up for a permanent vacation…

> It isn't about saving up for a permanent vacation. It shouldn't even be conceptualized as a "vacation". "Permanent vacation" is permanent time off work, not a holiday. If you're continuing doing what you're doing, why quit? Why not just keep working and save 25% of your income instead of being frugal, saving 40-50% and retiring early to stay frugal? If you're the kind of person who is hard working enough to make go…

> The only reason to FIRE is if your life's grand ambition somehow cannot be monetized at all, which in the current day is harder and harder to conceive.

This is a non sequitur. The ability to monetize something has no bearing on the optimal way to go about it unless money for its own sake is your sole objective in life. Being required to monetize an activity frequently produces a strictly inferior outcome by the standards of the person doing it. Not needing to optimize for monetization allows people to prioritize things like craft, quality, sustainability, etc.

The discourse around "enshittification" is almost entirely about the consequences of this dynamic.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#207

Post by jandrewrogers »

bdangubic wrote: post #199
jandrewrogers wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By most estimates, only about 10-20% of US households are debt-free. This needs to be qualified with the fact that it doesn't make sense for many people to be debt-free if they are financially literate. I know many people, myself included, who carry debt they could easily pay off because it would be irrational to do so. Being debt-free would actually make them poorer. This often holds true even when ignoring obviou…

being debt assumes appreciation on the asset you are holding under that debt which has been artificially inflated by the governments for yeeeeears now. you would never hold a debt on the house (even at 3.5%) if the house stayed the same price the day of the purchase and date of the sale. too many people are saying “some debt is good/great” which is only marginally true if you make certain assumptions which is exactly…

> being debt assumes appreciation on the asset

No it doesn't. The math works out the same regardless of changes in asset value. Paying cash has significant opportunity and liquidity costs. These can often exceed the cost of debt.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#208

Post by themafia »

randusername wrote: post #196

Maladaptive frugality is just one of many "maladaptive X" where X is something that we overgeneralized in childhood. I think it is especially easy to overgeneralize frugality because, either because it is taboo or conventionally boring, parents don't always share the situational details that prompt their behavior. In my life I internalized "everyone should rule the thermostat with an iron fist always" when the more c…

I fixed it by simply placing a value on my own time. When I started I figured my time was worth at least $50/hr. Spending an hour trying to save less than $50 is an absolute loss, recognizing that, my behavior changed easily.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#209

Post by zajio1am »

bdangubic wrote: post #199
jandrewrogers wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By most estimates, only about 10-20% of US households are debt-free. This needs to be qualified with the fact that it doesn't make sense for many people to be debt-free if they are financially literate. I know many people, myself included, who carry debt they could easily pay off because it would be irrational to do so. Being debt-free would actually make them poorer. This often holds true even when ignoring obviou…

being debt assumes appreciation on the asset you are holding under that debt which has been artificially inflated by the governments for yeeeeears now. you would never hold a debt on the house (even at 3.5%) if the house stayed the same price the day of the purchase and date of the sale. too many people are saying “some debt is good/great” which is only marginally true if you make certain assumptions which is exactly…

Even if the house prices stayed the same, it would make sense to keep the low interest debt and invest in other assets that have higher yield, like shares.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#210

Post by bdangubic »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #207
bdangubic wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

being debt assumes appreciation on the asset you are holding under that debt which has been artificially inflated by the governments for yeeeeears now. you would never hold a debt on the house (even at 3.5%) if the house stayed the same price the day of the purchase and date of the sale. too many people are saying “some debt is good/great” which is only marginally true if you make certain assumptions which is exactly…

> being debt assumes appreciation on the asset No it doesn't. The math works out the same regardless of changes in asset value. Paying cash has significant opportunity and liquidity costs. These can often exceed the cost of debt.

I had mortage on a condo for $460k. total money paid to pay it off via debt, little over $1m. I sell 30 years later for $460k I just lost $550k :) (I didn’t, paid it off in 5 years saving myself 100’s of thousands …)

ask yourself why “we” think that some debt (e.g. real estate) is great) while others (e.g. vehicle) is bad? it just might ge that one is looked at as appreciating asset while the other not so much.

comments like yours always remind of the stripper scene from the movie “big short”

having debt also makes you a forever slave (true capitalism at work). God forbid you lose your source(s) of income and don’t have FU money or significant stash, now you fucked. with no debt and roof over your head life is infinitely better even during trying times..

Post reply on HN