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In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

theguardian.com

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Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#201

Post by teamonkey »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93
simmerup wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential bit happens in 100 years so of course you're not going to see it materialize over night

> It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential bit happens in 100 years No, it’s not, and no, we don’t know that. Humans will survive climate change. Rich countries will survive, too. We will all suffer. Economically, healthwise and aesthetically. But that’s not existential. Framing it as such is disingenuous and counterproductive.

Perhaps we should be using ‘apocalyptic threat’ instead?

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#202

Post by amarant »

marssaxman wrote: post #198
amarant wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very seasonal for both. But we're currently better at storing wheat for 6 months than we are at storing electricity for a similar period.

Whether you store it or not, getting free energy from the sun for half the year is better than getting no energy from the sun. Every marginal reduction in fossil fuel usage helps.

Scandinavia is actually seeing a pattern where in the summer, there is so much electricity produced that it's approximately free, and in the winters, when solar panels produce nothing, there's not enough to go around so prices are sky high.

It's a very weird situation where it's financially difficult to build new power because you'll be doing it entirely for free half the year, but then you get 4-5 months that are an absolute goldmine.

Which is pretty much the ideal conditions for coal plants, so they make a killing during the winter and then shut off during the summer.

We need something that works throughout the winter so we can finally get rid of the coal plants the whole year!

We do not need more power in the summer though, that's covered by solar already.

Denmark is very well suited for wind power.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#203

Post by asdff »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #140
asdff wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be nice if we started with the actual marginal land and not the marginal land in real estate terms. Roofs for a start. Parking lots next. Really no reason why any and all industrial land shouldn't look like a pure sea of solar from orbit. Every square inch is low hanging fruit no one would complain about a solar panel going in there.

The best land for solar farms tends to be in the desert where there isn’t enough water for industrial use.

But we already have land set aside for industrial use, why not make use of it? Desert isn't free land either. There is a whole ecology there.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#204

Post by asdff »

hattmall wrote: post #133
asdff wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be nice if we started with the actual marginal land and not the marginal land in real estate terms. Roofs for a start. Parking lots next. Really no reason why any and all industrial land shouldn't look like a pure sea of solar from orbit. Every square inch is low hanging fruit no one would complain about a solar panel going in there.

But it's literally not low, it's up on a roof. The ground installs are preferable because they are low and easily accessible.

They still do rooftop solar like I say, it is just at a scale that seems to only pay for the lights in the building and not generate surplus. So a guy still has to be up there no matter what every now and then even right now.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#205

Post by seanmcdirmid »

asdff wrote: post #203
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best land for solar farms tends to be in the desert where there isn’t enough water for industrial use.

But we already have land set aside for industrial use, why not make use of it? Desert isn't free land either. There is a whole ecology there.

Desert ecologies are often boosted by solar (turns out animals spend lots of time in the shade so they aren’t roasted, and solar panels are shade). Industrial areas, at least where I live, tend to be pretty dynamic with respect to structures, I guess you could do it, but you would have to redo it a lot.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#206

Post by asdff »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #205
asdff wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we already have land set aside for industrial use, why not make use of it? Desert isn't free land either. There is a whole ecology there.

Desert ecologies are often boosted by solar (turns out animals spend lots of time in the shade so they aren’t roasted, and solar panels are shade). Industrial areas, at least where I live, tend to be pretty dynamic with respect to structures, I guess you could do it, but you would have to redo it a lot.

Manatees like when you leave a freshwater hose leaking into the saltwater. Ecologist tell you it is bad though because the animal develops a dependency towards human intervention that might not be a long term phenomenon.

Where I live the industrial areas are pretty much two elevations across the entire lot. You get the warehouse where it is a massive building with a flat roof of a single height. And you get where the trucks pull in and back into the warehouse, also a bunch of flat cement with fixed height requirements one could trivially deck with solar.

And when I looked at industrial areas in denmark, or at least in the vicinity of copenhagen, I saw pretty much exclusively that outside actual oil refineries. Just a ton of warehouses, flat roofs, truck yards. Again already with some solar, just only implemented to the extent to supplement a buildings utility bills, using only a small fraction of that massive flat roof, not to produce an excess of energy. I dare say most industrial property the world over looks more or less like that: rectangular building, flat roof, truck yard.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#207

Post by scoofy »

_moof wrote: post #139
SoftTalker wrote: post #11

Denmark is a poor location for solar. They are pretty far north and don't have a lot of sunny days that are good for solar generation. When they do, those peaks drive energy prices negative. From the article: Over the next 10 years, the official expectation is a very large rise in the amount of solar produced. But that kind of clashes with the reality on the ground – they can’t make money

I don't understand why energy production must be profitable.

Anything that doesn’t break even suffers from its own success.

If you have a public transportation system that loses money on every rider, then more people using it means everyone has to pay more (in taxes).

This can all work out when the economy is good and taxes can be increased, but it’s an inherently fragile system. At exactly the moment when most people will be dependent on a publicly funded system — when times are tough — is exactly the same time when tax revenues drop.

By creating a system that can’t sustain itself, you are making the system more likely to collapse in a crisis.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#208

Post by hbogert »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #46
SoftTalker wrote: post #11

Denmark is a poor location for solar. They are pretty far north and don't have a lot of sunny days that are good for solar generation. When they do, those peaks drive energy prices negative. From the article: Over the next 10 years, the official expectation is a very large rise in the amount of solar produced. But that kind of clashes with the reality on the ground – they can’t make money

Far north places have long summer days. This doesn't align well with the winter heating needs but it does balance really well with wind generation which peaks in winter.

It would make even more sense if we can synthesize fuels

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#209

Post by littlestymaar »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #187
littlestymaar wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do not avoid it "as much as possible". The panels are shading each other in that very photo You haven't linked the photo… > It's basic trigonometry. Narrow spacing needs the sun to get pretty high before shading stops. Of course it's “basic trigonometry”… It doesn't matter if the panels are shaded when the incidence angle is high anyway! > The limiter is the price of land. If land was free I guarantee they wou…

> You haven't linked the photo… The one at the top of the article. > They wouldn't, they'd just put more panels on a bigger surface. Given a specific budget they can only buy so many panels. Free land would change the tradeoffs. > And again, industrial actors are maximizing the economic output they can make. Based on current costs. Change the costs and the methods change too. > Whatever decision you take at your leve…

This makes no sense: solar plants in the deserts have the same shape yet even though the land is pretty much worseless.

Where did you get your morning shade fixation from?

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#210

Post by jeppester »

garte wrote: post #193
jeppester wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fields that the solar farms are replacing were generating food for everyone, including those who live in the cities. 1-2 days per year the whole town has a smell of manure. That's is an externality we accepted when we moved here, so we do not complain that the fields need to produce food. Also, you are implying that we have not accepted any solar panels, which is wrong. We have plenty in the near area. We just do…

As I said below: Cozy small time agriculture in the west is a small part of your general food supply. The rest is in places you do not want to live and is called monoculture. A huge part of your food supply is not produced "in the countryside" in either Denmark or most of the West. It all starts with oil and energy. Nothing else matters as much. So getting off oil and producing energy in other ways is at the forefron…

I totally agree, except for the last part where you attack a straw man.

I'm not talking about the view from my front porch, I'm talking about solar panels in nearly every direction, like a sort of barrier, choking the town.

As mentioned we do have solar panels in some directions, we just don't want them everywhere.

Also there's no dichotomy here, it's not a choice between choking small towns and saving the planet vs. the opposite.

I'm arguing that we should first and foremost place solar panels where people already do not want to live for various reasons. The incentives we've created so far have not been good at that.

Update: I realise that I misread the first part of your comment. The agriculture that the panels are replacing is probably what you would call monoculture. It would however seem that the monoculture you picture looks very different from what we have in Denmark. If you think about endless "field deserts" that's not what it is. That is also why people like to live here.

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