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How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

cacm.acm.org

201–210 of 257 posts

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#201
if I remember correctly the space shuttle had four computers that all did the same processing and a fifth that decided what was the correct answer if they all didn't match or some went down

can't find a wikipedia article on it but the times had an article in 1981

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/04/10/us/computers-to-have-the-...

apparently the 5th was standby, not the decider

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For errors due to radiation the probability is extremely low, since it would need to flip the same bit at the same time in two different places.

Then why 8 instead of 3?

They know their developers and engineers suck almost as hard as their management decisions so they added some more redundancy.

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a lot more software developers than 50 years ago and intelligence is still normally distributed.

What’s your point?

The average coder in the 1970s was a lot smarter than today. Think about the people who would be interested to start a career in this field at that time.

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#204
post #3

The quote from the CMU guy about modern Agile and DevOps approaches challenging architectural discipline is a nice way of saying most of us have completely forgotten how to build deterministic systems. Time-triggered Ethernet with strict frame scheduling feels like it's from a parallel universe compared to how we ship software now.

During the time of the first Apollo missions, a dominant portion of computing research was funded by the defense department and related arms of government, making this type of deterministic and WCET (worst case execution time) a dominant computing paradigm. Now that we have a huge free market for things like online shopping and social media, this is a bit of a neglected field and suffers from poor investment and mind…

It still lives on as a bit of a hard skill in automotive/robotics. As someone who crosses the divide between enterprise web software, and hacking about with embedded automotive bits, I don't really lament that we're not using WCET and Real Time OSes in web applications!

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's a different level of 'good-enough' in each industry and that's normal. When your highest damage of a bad site is reduced revenue (or even just missed free user), you have lower motivation to do it right compared to a living human coming back in one piece.

Yes, of course, but a culture of “good enough” can go too far. One may work in a lower-risk context, but we can still learn a lot from robust architectural thinking. Edge cases, security, and more. Low quality for a shopping cart feels fine until someone steals all the credit card numbers.

Likewise, perfectionism when it is unneeded can slow teams down to a halt for no reason. The balance in most cases is in the middle, and should shift towards 100% correctness as consequences get more dire.

This is not to say your code should be a buggy mess, but 98% bug free when you're a SaaS product and pushing features is certainly better than 100% bug free and losing ground to competitors.

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#207
post #143

NASA describes some impressive work for runtime integrity, but the lack of mention of build-time security is surprising. I would expect to see multi-party-signed deterministic builds etc. Anyone have any insight here?

What would the threat profile be here to require that? Regardless, I'd be a little surprised if they didn't have anything like that; provenance is very important in aerospace, with hardware tracked to the point that NTSB investigators looking at a crash can tell what ingot a bolt was made from

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course, but a culture of “good enough” can go too far. One may work in a lower-risk context, but we can still learn a lot from robust architectural thinking. Edge cases, security, and more. Low quality for a shopping cart feels fine until someone steals all the credit card numbers.

Likewise, perfectionism when it is unneeded can slow teams down to a halt for no reason. The balance in most cases is in the middle, and should shift towards 100% correctness as consequences get more dire. This is not to say your code should be a buggy mess, but 98% bug free when you're a SaaS product and pushing features is certainly better than 100% bug free and losing ground to competitors.

True, though I'd say more bug impact than bug free-ness. If the 2% of bugs is in the most critical area of your app and causes users to abandon your product then you're losing ground.

That's one thing I think is good to learn from mission critical architecture: an awareness of the impact and risk tolerance of code and bugs, which means an awareness of how the software will be used and in what context by users.

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#209

The part about triple-redundant voting systems genuinely blew my mind — it's such a different world from how most of us write software day to day, and honestly kind of humbling.

I wonder how the voting components are protected from integrity failures?

Re: How NASA built Artemis II’s fault-tolerant computer

#210
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrary to propaganda from the likes of Ludwig von Mises, the free market is not some kind of optimal solution to all of our problems. And it certainly does not produce excellent software.

I can't think of a time when I've found an absolutist position useful or intelligent, in any field. Free-market absolutism is as stupid as totalitarianism. The content of economics papers does not need to be evaluated to discard an extreme position, one need merely say "there are more things in earth and heaven than are dreamed of in your philosophies"

Great point, if the only constant is change, then philosophy should follow (or lead).
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