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In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

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Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#201

Post by laserlight »

alex43578 wrote: post #119
thfuran wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you that a lot more people would be willing to put up with it for $10 million a year.

Ok, but society can't bear the cost of $10M garbage men, so either people will do it themselves or go without. The same argument applies to any job: in most scenarios, it pays what it's worth to society at the market clearing price. The government can interfere via licensing, minimum wages, quotas, etc; but broadly the job pays what it's worth.

> pays what it's worth to society

Pay and worth are different, just like price and value are. Garbage collection is worth a lot, but its pay is determined by market dynamics. As the number of unemployed increases, it will pay less.

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#202

Post by hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm »

alex43578 wrote: post #197
stonekyx wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, take that stricter immigration control. But if people assume upfront that immigrants are intrinsically the source of problems and it takes stricter and stricter controls to filter them down to only those that bring value, this strengthening of filtering will never end. Remember that one does not _either_ bring value or cause problems. I expect a typical human being to bring some value and cause some problems at…

I never said that all immigrants are intrinsically a source of problems, and saying that any filtering inevitably leads to never-endingly stronger filters is a slippery slope fallacy. You absolutely can measure the likely degree of problems an immigrant would bring. To an absurd, extreme, example: you have 1 spot open for immigration. Do you offer it to a semiconductor EE with a clean criminal record in his early 30s…

The "skilled" immigrant is largely a myth. Many countries now have more graduates than ever before with rising graduate unemployment while these "skilled" immigrants just usually end up being another mediocre tech worker. The GDP per capita hasn't been growing since the crash in 2008 for many European countries despite the influx of "skilled" immigrants.

It is mostly propaganda. Said immigrants will likely still never truly socially fit in even with great effort.

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#203

Post by panda-giddiness »

alex43578 wrote: post #197
stonekyx wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, take that stricter immigration control. But if people assume upfront that immigrants are intrinsically the source of problems and it takes stricter and stricter controls to filter them down to only those that bring value, this strengthening of filtering will never end. Remember that one does not _either_ bring value or cause problems. I expect a typical human being to bring some value and cause some problems at…

I never said that all immigrants are intrinsically a source of problems, and saying that any filtering inevitably leads to never-endingly stronger filters is a slippery slope fallacy. You absolutely can measure the likely degree of problems an immigrant would bring. To an absurd, extreme, example: you have 1 spot open for immigration. Do you offer it to a semiconductor EE with a clean criminal record in his early 30s…

It's not as if Japan (or any other country, for that matter) doesn't already have immigration restrictions. Japan uses a points-based merit system for permanent residence [1], not unlike the criteria you suggested. Just to give an example, having a PhD and speaking Japanese at an N1 level (~equivalent to B2 CEFR) is barely sufficient to qualify (unless you're older than 30, in which case it won't be).

The more interesting question to ask is: Why has Japan decided to tighten immigration requirements now? But in my opinion the answer is rather obvious, especially when you consider the current Prime Minister's nationalistic beliefs: It's much easier to blame foreigners for insufficient welfare, ailing infrastructure, etc than to actually improve welfare, infrastructure, etc.

Also, the example of "a 68 year old alcoholic high school dropout with multiple violent criminal convictions" is rather ridiculous. You're arguing a strawman. It's already impossible for such a candidate to immigrate almost anywhere barring some other exceptional circumstances.

---

[1] See here, eg, to see how you would fare: https://japanprcalculator.com/

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#204

Post by shiroiuma »

Joker_vD wrote: post #181
shiroiuma wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this is the same almost everywhere. You're not going to find many young people who will go to a university to get the qualifications to be a medical professional, and then willingly move back to their middle-of-nowhere small town to do that job, even if it pays more.

The Soviets would attempt to solve it by requiring the graduates to work off about 3 years in the place chosen by the joint commissions from Gosplan/Ministry of Labour/Ministry of Higher Education (those same commissions determined the number of students to enroll in the first place, so...). And this system (called "distribution", as in, "distributing the graduates to the workplaces") was widely unpopular for obvious…

In the US today, they try to entice people to those places by forgiving their student loans if they work there long enough.

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#205

Post by iamankur »

perching_aix wrote: post #136
jazz9k wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Japan need immigrants? Japan is one of the safest countries in the world because of its immigration policies.

> japan is going to shit because of all the immigrants > japan is better than pussy thanks to it being strict on immigrants pick whichever convenient

This should be the top comment :)

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#206

Post by th2o3i4234983 »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #107

I think that many signs are indicating that Japan will re-emerge as a major technology powerhouse in the coming decades. And being confronted early to demographic transformation will end-up being an advantage. On the opposite side I think that immigration is a temporary band-aid that doesn’t solve any of the structural issues.

Other than that loony High-School "Nostradamus", what signs do you see ?

They have some core technologies in some niches, but they lag behind both the US & China in Tech. This is esp. true in Robotics, and their academics/industrialists have massive egos & racial pride from a bygone era to ever be able to bridge this gap with immigration. They even removed the Phd scholarships for people moving to Japanese Universities (which have been falling in competitiveness for decades)!

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#207

Post by xbmcuser »

deaux wrote: post #164
cryzinger wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is over 20 years old, and I'm sure doesn't hold true in all areas, but at least at one point there was high demand to be a "san man" ("san" as in "sanitation") in NYC: > It's a coveted job to be a New York City san man. When they last gave the qualifying test, 30,000 people took it. The General waited five years after passing the exam before a job came open, which is typical. And though the work is grueling, the…

And that's how it should be. Trash men should be making $200K and have high social status whereas the devs helping Bezos to his 5th super yacht or Zuck poison more kids should get minimum wage and treated as pariahs. Unfortunately at the country level it's reversed.

You are both wrong and this is why they win the salary of the coder is not high the taxes on bezos and co are less and the public workers pay less. That what needs to be change not labour be paid less no matter what kind of labour

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#208

Post by sph »

> filling the one [job] nobody wants.

Time to share the meme again, sorry to my followers for reusing this joke:

‘I wanted a machine to do the dishes for me so I could concentrate on my art, and what I got was a machine to do the art so now I’m the one doing the dishes’

I’d be much happier with this AI revolution if I got a personal robot chef and house-keeper, while I could keep writing beautiful software. Now I’m looking to pivot into more blue-collar jobs to escape the existential dread, and making software a personal hobby rather than a career.

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#209

Post by sph »

areoform wrote: post #55
eucryphia wrote: post #15

The job no one wants? Grunting out 2.6 babies before you’re 35. Who’s paying for your nursing home? Tax the robot’s income? Will your demographic replacements vote for that?

> Grunting out 2.6 babies before you’re 35. * destroying your body, stripping your bones, getting diabetes and temporarily (or permanently) disabling yourself with issues no healthcare provider will take seriously for decades to come for 2.6 babies in your youth. ––– Someone called this a "belief." There's a 10% to 4% probability that the average teenage girl will die from childbirth, given the cumulative risk of pre…

I wonder how humanity managed to survive until today having to deal with childbirth.

Such a 2026 tech worker type of comment.

Re: In Japan, the robot isn't coming for your job; it's filling the one nobody wants

#210

Post by hdgvhicv »

AngryData wrote: post #130
youre-wrong3 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even tho you added an edit. You’re still wrong. Garbage collection is typically a high paying job because no one wants to do it. But people still consider it “below” them and don’t want to do it even when there’s a high unemployment rate.

I don't know if I would call it high pay anywhere ive lived. It is okay pay around me right now in a less prosperous area of the country for not requiring tools or previous skills. But the main thing going for it around here is stability of hours, a decent amount of holidays off, and you don't have to destroy your body.

Starting 70, going to 100 as norm and 160 with overtime. That’s way higher than average wage.
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