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Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

theguardian.com

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Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#201

Post by M0r13n »

padjo wrote: post #200
M0r13n wrote: post #82

I've had a rough time with the last two EVs I've owned. I bought a Honda e in 2020 because of its retro-future charm, but ended up being disappointed by several things: - the range was miserable - the software quality was bad - no OTA updates ever (despite Honda's promises) - slow charging - poor public charging infrastructure in Germany I should have known that a 35 kW battery wouldn't deliver great range or chargin…

You're making me very happy with my decision in 2021 to resist the appealing design of the Honda and buy an id3 with a reasonably sized battery. Also your in winter are you running the heater constantly? I find just dressing for outdoors, leaving the heater off and using heated seats/wheel means I only lose maybe 15% range.

> Also your in winter are you running the heater constantly?

Nope. But last winter it got really cold (< -10°C). Also the Honda was aggressively heating the battery

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#202

Post by BobaFloutist »

pshirshov wrote: post #141
M0r13n wrote: post #82

I've had a rough time with the last two EVs I've owned. I bought a Honda e in 2020 because of its retro-future charm, but ended up being disappointed by several things: - the range was miserable - the software quality was bad - no OTA updates ever (despite Honda's promises) - slow charging - poor public charging infrastructure in Germany I should have known that a 35 kW battery wouldn't deliver great range or chargin…

> poor public charging infrastructure in Germany Dunno, had a trip through it last year, there are more than enough chargers. Some of them were literally free. I have 70kWh battery though. Also, I paid much less than 40k for my chinese SUV. The software is buggy though, a random reboot on motorway doesn't feel nice.

Does the random reboot affect the motor, lights, defogger, signals, anything else absolutely essential to driving?

Don't get me wrong, I'd be annoyed and unsettled if the sound system or gps or whatever rebooted while I was driving, I'm just curious just how dire it is

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#203

Post by lelanthran »

neya wrote: post #173
lelanthran wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a retreat from EVs. Article seems to be gibberish, carmakers don't seem to be retreating from EVs.

You are free to believe what you want, I'm just presenting the data.

> You are free to believe what you want, I'm just presenting the data.

It's not a matter of belief: what does the data you presented (profitability and employee count) have to do with the claim about product types?

I mean, you could have presented data showing that the sky is blue - your data is correct, but irrelevant to whether the manufacturers are cutting down on a specific product type.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#204

Post by tw-20260303-001 »

speedgoose wrote: post #169
tw-20260303-001 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And cheaper. You sound like a broken record. > Remove the EV subsidies and ICE taxes.

Should I include the cost of the current wars?

Go on then.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#205

Post by foobarian »

M0r13n wrote: post #197
garyfirestorm wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inversely I leased a Fiat 500e for a year in Detroit Michigan and had no issues with range ~130 miles. I would plug it in nightly as I had a level 2 charger installed at my house. The experiment was quite successful. I just didn’t like front wheel drive on somedays with heavy snow. I used it for commuting to work, buying groceries and visiting friends nearby. It met my needs and I feel a slightly bigger car with 4 do…

Sadly, I don't own a wall box. So I'm dependent on public infrastructure. If I could charge at home I'd be even happier with my car.

Sadly I think it's kind of accepted by this point that overnight charging is a prerequisite to a good experience with an EV.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#206

Post by Gud »

pshirshov wrote: post #141
M0r13n wrote: post #82

I've had a rough time with the last two EVs I've owned. I bought a Honda e in 2020 because of its retro-future charm, but ended up being disappointed by several things: - the range was miserable - the software quality was bad - no OTA updates ever (despite Honda's promises) - slow charging - poor public charging infrastructure in Germany I should have known that a 35 kW battery wouldn't deliver great range or chargin…

> poor public charging infrastructure in Germany Dunno, had a trip through it last year, there are more than enough chargers. Some of them were literally free. I have 70kWh battery though. Also, I paid much less than 40k for my chinese SUV. The software is buggy though, a random reboot on motorway doesn't feel nice.

I work all over Europe and I’m not super impressed with the state of charging infrastructure in general and it seems particularly bad in German.

One thing that’s super annoying and this is not specific to Germany, but why the fuck do I need some shitty app to use your charger? Should be tap and go like any other purchase. You know, like how I pay for my petrol?

Seems to me like everyone wants to force an app down my throat where it’s really not needed. It especially sucks when you’re a visitor to the country.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#207

Post by tzs »

seabrookmx wrote: post #140
bakies wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their homes don't have electricity?

A standard wall socket doesn't provide enough amperage to charge an EV at reasonable rate if you use your car more than once or twice a week. Maybe this is less of a problem in the EU where people generally have shorter commutes, but I could definitely still see it being an issue. I know multiple people that have had to upgrade the main electrical panel in their home to support an EV charger, because their older buil…

Don't forget that in the EU household circuits tend to support higher loads than US household circuits.

EU typically from what I've read uses 240 V compared to 120 V in the US. They are usually 16 A compared to 15 A in the US.

That gives them 3840 W vs 1800 W for the US, but that would just be for intermittent loads. For continuous loads you are supposed to derate that. In the US the continuous limit is 1440 W. From what I've read it is 2800 W in much of Europe.

At 3.5 miles/kWh that gives 5 miles/hour charging in the US and 9.8 miles/hour in the EU.

In most of the EU that would be enough to cover the average daily commute with 2 hours of charging.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#208

Post by jen20 »

fullshark wrote: post #11
hyperionultra wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By limiting imports and offering alternatives in home. Also, the myths about reliability ads a lot.

So essentially western government intervention in the economy is the only way and every company is behaving rationally by retreating until the government steps in and makes the long term math make sense for them.

Leaves a very large open question of whether China would be getting anywhere without Chinese government intervention...

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#209

Post by luizfzs »

epolanski wrote: post #64
luizfzs wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, they're not limiting imports. They are heavily embargoed since 1960s, which also affects other countries' abilities to trade with them, under the threat of themselves being sanctioned.

The only embargo is from the US. Canada and the EU trade fine with Cuba. Spain alone accounts for 20% of the trade. In fact, both EU and Canada have regulations that prosecute any European and Canadian company that complies with foreign embargoes (Council Regulation (EC) No 2271/96 for Europe and Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act for Canada). Of course US can pull its gigantic economic and financial levers to out…

> US laws apply to US citizens and companies.

You're right. But trade in US Dollars with other countries need to go through US banks, which can be subject to prohibitions, which can be done by political motivation.

Also, the issue of the PetroDollar complicates things internationally as well. US throws a tantrum when small countries (or countries it can bully) trade Oil in other currencies. That is very important to keep themselves relevant and with some control over international trades.

Yet another aspect is that if any goods, regardless of who is selling it, contains more than 10% of components, technology, produced by a US company, such seller requires an US Export license to trade such goods with Cuba.

So it's not as simple as that.

https://shippingsolutionssoftware.com/blog/products-subject-...

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#210

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ericmay wrote: post #170
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logistics through Tibet wasn’t really a thing until recently, China had to invest there. But it’s not just Nepal, it’s most of Africa, southeast asia, as well as Australia/NZ. China is literally creating markets for its products that simply didn’t exist at all before.

Sure, though I'm not positive that's a good economic strategy outside of perhaps SE Asia. Market size in places like Africa, along with general instability presenting challenges has not made it a great place to invest, unless of course you have state backing and subsidies from, idk, China? But let's say China develops these markets and they can afford more cars. That's great. That means after China develops them, Wes…

Western countries don’t have a product to sell without protectionism. Look at Australia, a first word country by any measure but without an auto industry to protect has wholly embraced Chinese EVs.
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