Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn • Hacker News Board

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#201

Post by scoofy » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 9:02 PM UTC

M95D wrote: post #197

scoofy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic growth just means "providing food, homes, and jobs to people who are alive." The degrowthers also presume that growth requires some sort of nasty fuel source. Almost some sort of religiosity that believes that anything good must also create some effectively equal amount of bad. Anyone who cares about solar knows that a solar-battery future is effectively 99% recyclable.

Earth is limited. Resources are limited. You can't recycle to infinity. Each time you recycle something, the material recovered is worse than before. Steel is weaker, plastic has impurities and is not clear/transparent, paper isn't white and it contaminates the printers with dust, etc. To keep maintaining quality, fresh material must always be added to the recycled one. Everything we dig out of the Earth is non-renew…

>You can't recycle to infinity.

The lifespan of the earth is not infinite, pretending it is is foolish. We have about 5 billion years on earth before it will be consumed by the sun. Presuming an infinite earth creates a very obvious, simple, and wrong conclusion about something that is actually very difficult problem.

>The logical conclusion is that at some point we run out of resources.

The point of renewable resources -- like solar -- is exactly that they are renewable or effectively infinite.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#202

Post by projektfu » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 9:05 PM UTC

pfdietz wrote: post #86

projektfu wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the world population expected to decline? Or are you talking about a specific country?

I'm talking about the entire world. Almost everywhere, the total fertility rate is well below replacement (which is around 2.1). UN estimates that say global population will peak around 2084; they assume global TFR increases back to 1.6, but there is no evidence for this assumption, so global population will likely peak sooner. Every first world country will be in population decline by 2050; some already are. There's…

So it seems there is a median projection of mild decline way in the future. There are also reasonably probable scenarios that show no decline, or more precipitous decline. However, they generally agree that there will be at least 1 billion more people in the world, most likely 2 billion, and possibly more.

What is the real risk of the Earth eventually going back toward having 8 billion people after reaching 10 billion? Why is this "the exponential process one should be most concerned about today"?

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#203

Post by graemep » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 9:20 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #189

graemep wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A real problem, but a different one. Bad decisions, bad government, bad distribution of resources. It does not alter the underlying trend which is better for the vast majority of people.

Only when that vast majority is synonymous with the upper class driving their Ferraris into work, or heli-taxis.

Almost everywhere in the world the standard of living of the average person is far higher than it was a hundred years ago, when it was far higher than it was 500 years ago, when it was far higher than it was a thousand years ago.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#204

Post by lanfeust6 » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 9:39 PM UTC

simgt wrote: post #52

lanfeust6 wrote: post #13

This ignores innovation, which drastically reduces externalities over time (as it has historically; see smog and pollution from England Industrial revolution). Granted that can benefit or even require investment from the State to expedite things. R&D spending was better in the 20th century. At any rate you cannot divorce said innovation from growth and consumption. By contrast, "degrowth" would inflict harm and make…

People are emigrating to the U.S because of decades of soft power and propaganda, and mostly to make money to send to their families or head back after a couple years. On all the metrics that actually matter to quality of life (ie. not sqm of mowed grass per person or avg height of SUV bonnet), the EU rates higher than the US.

Remind me, what's money for again?

If people cared about mere subsistence, they wouldn't move to the U.S. They like everything that comes with greater income. You can't divorce that from metrics tracking quality of life.

Europe has a better safety net, but basically anywhere in the West is an improvement over their origin countries for the most part. And consider: the first choice for those interested in North America is not Canada, it's the U.S. The earning potential is higher, and immigrants work hard. They mostly don't care that there's a lesser social safety net.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#205

Post by SilverElfin » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 9:46 PM UTC

delegate wrote: post #84

When I was a child, I was spending my summers at my grandparents. They had a cozy house in the village. They worked the land, they had a few animals. They grew their food. They sold some wine and fruit at the market. They had a big house, land, clean air, clean water and they were healthy. They celebrated the holidays, had many friends, went to church, weddings, funerals, etc. Villagers always greeted them and stoppe…

You’re right. Ignore the other comments not recognizing that happiness and health can be had without a constant competition with everyone else. The modern way of life is broken. The old way of lives in many older civilizations are better. We need to stop glorifying our western order and look east.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#206

Post by Schmerika » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 10:51 PM UTC

yoyohello13 wrote: post #90

lstodd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least accepting that one lacks virtue is intellectually honest and saves resources otherwise wasted on deceitful proclamations of nonexistent and imaginary virtues. It's not like anything was meant to be done either way.

Pretending to be good at least may influence/shame other people in to actually being good. When everyone is just rolling around in the muck there is no incentive to be better.

> When everyone is just rolling around in the muck there is no incentive to be better.

There have been many celebrated and uncelebrated people throughout history, known for their tremendous insight and wisdom, who all say the same thing about virtue: It's better, by far, to be a good person with fuck-all than a pos with billions.

* "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" - JC

* "The one who lives a hundred years immoral and uncontrolled is not worth as much as one who lives a single day virtuous and meditative." - Buddha

* "It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor" - Seneca

* "Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself." - Marcus Aurelius

Etc. And that timeless fact doesn't change no matter where or when or who you are; or how many people are "rolling around in the muck".

It's not even an especially hidden fact. It's awful sad that grown-ass adults can look at people like Musk or Gates or Trump or the Manosphere shitlings and think, wow, those look like happy content people.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#207

Post by tsoukase » Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 11:25 PM UTC

This ship has sailed. The environment is destined to be destroyed sooner or later. It's just not at this generation so hardly anybody in charge is worried. Except the growth problem that cannot be solved, inequality is another fact. Sure I pollute with my yearly 10MWh of home heating + 10 for my car, but someone pollutes in multiple times that with his yacht and jet. Let's start by converting him before we all revert back to middle ages.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#208

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 12:02 AM UTC

scoofy wrote: post #201

M95D wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earth is limited. Resources are limited. You can't recycle to infinity. Each time you recycle something, the material recovered is worse than before. Steel is weaker, plastic has impurities and is not clear/transparent, paper isn't white and it contaminates the printers with dust, etc. To keep maintaining quality, fresh material must always be added to the recycled one. Everything we dig out of the Earth is non-renew…

>You can't recycle to infinity. The lifespan of the earth is not infinite, pretending it is is foolish. We have about 5 billion years on earth before it will be consumed by the sun. Presuming an infinite earth creates a very obvious, simple, and wrong conclusion about something that is actually very difficult problem. >The logical conclusion is that at some point we run out of resources. The point of renewable resour…

You’re not really addressing the obvious though: that at the rate that we are consuming and polluting the earth, we could be pushing ourselves into extinction faster than the sun could just naturally swallow up the earth. I don’t think anyone is debating this eventual death of our star, but our astronomers would very much like to live long enough for us to find another home planet and develop the technology to get there.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#209

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 12:06 AM UTC

JoelMcCracken wrote: post #83

yoyohello13 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know? These days I actually prefer virtue signalling to the trend of not having any virtues at all and being proud of it.

I do think there are absolutely instances of people virtue signaling. But, after observing society over the last few years, I've come to think that people who _whine_ about virtue signaling are so full of vice that they cannot possibly believe someone _else_ isn't also as base as they are. Its all such a shame. It seems like society has no ability to have reasonable, sensible conversation. I really wonder how the enl…

Do you know that about everyone who is virtue signalling, or are you just assuming that to be a blanket truth about everyone? I don’t think you can ever know the extent to which someone is actually trying, even if imperfect because some things just aren’t within individual control.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#210

Post by pas » Tue, Mar 17, 2026, 12:22 AM UTC

ZenoArrow wrote: post #186

_2d30 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to quibble about OP's implied definition of "unchecked economic growth", then you should at least provide a better one that isn't just "economic growth".

The "unchecked" in unchecked economic growth just refers to the fact that no one is applying the brakes to this growth, i.e. it's being allowed to continue uninterrupted. This is only a problem when you understand the downsides of continuing with business as usual (mainly linked to the damage to the natural world).

growth especially in the EU pretty much decoupled from environmental load