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The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

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Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#201

Post by wolvesechoes »

wepple wrote: post #196
wolvesechoes wrote: post #155

I am bit tired of such discussions. I don't care if LLMs are good at coding or bad at it (in my experience the answer is "it depends"). I don't care how good are they at anything else. What matters in the end is that this tech is not to empower a common person (although it could). It is not here to make our lives better, more worthwhile, more satisfying (it could do these as well). It is there to reduce our agency, t…

> It is there to reduce our agency, to make it easier to fire us, to put us in even more precarious position Could be. It could also end up freeing us from every commercial dependency we have. Write your own OS, your own mail app, design your own machinery to farm with. It’s here, so I don’t know where you’re going with “I’m unhappy this is happening and someone should do something”

> It could also end up freeing us from every commercial dependency we have

Yeah, companies that develop and push this tech definitely have this in mind.

> I don’t know where you’re going with “I’m unhappy this is happening and someone should do something

I am not surprised because I didn't write anything like it.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#202

Post by voidUpdate »

simianwords wrote: post #141
voidUpdate wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Why hasn’t the boilerplate been automated as libraries or other abstractions?" Because a lot of programmers don't know how to copy-paste or make packages for themselves? We have boilerplate at my work, which comprises of some ready made packages that we can drop in, and tweak as needed, no LLMs required

they don't go as deep as llm's which capture regularities at much more granular levels

I'm not entirely sure what you mean... If something becomes repetitive enough to be boilerplate, we can just make it into a package and keep it around for the next time

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#203

Post by noemit »

whazor wrote: post #174
noemit wrote: post #106

Many people don't know this, but the Luddites were right. I studied Art History and this particular movement. One of the claims of the Luddites is that quality would go down, because their craft took half a lifetime to master (it was passed down from parent to chile.) I was able to feel wool scarves made in europe from the middle ages. (In museum storage, under the guidance of a curator) They are a fundamentally diff…

I found that it normally takes one prompt early-on to go from 'vibe-coded spaghetti' to something having a decent architecture.

I cap my effort at 2-3 prompts. One to investigate obvious mistakes with a top model, 1-2 to try to fix them.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#204

Post by mathgradthrow »

raincole wrote: post #34

> Video games stand out as one market where consumers have pushed back effectively No, it's simply untrue. Players only object against AI art assets. And only when they're painfully obvious. No one cares about how the code is written. If you actually read the words used in Steam AI survey you'll know Steam has completely caved in for AI-gen code as well. It's specifically worded like this: > content such as artwork,…

localization? Why would you oppose LLMs doing localization?

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#205

Post by TimTheTinker »

larodi wrote: post #184
raincole wrote: post #34

> Video games stand out as one market where consumers have pushed back effectively No, it's simply untrue. Players only object against AI art assets. And only when they're painfully obvious. No one cares about how the code is written. If you actually read the words used in Steam AI survey you'll know Steam has completely caved in for AI-gen code as well. It's specifically worded like this: > content such as artwork,…

> No one cares about how the code is written. I would overstate: No one even cares how architecture is done. Unless you are the one fixing it or maintaining it. Sorry, no one. We all know Apple did some great stuff with their code, but we care more about the awful work done on the UI, right? I mean - the UI seems to not be breaking in these new OSs which is amazing feature... for a game perhaps, and most likely the c…

This is overstating it. Computers are amazing machines, and modern operating systems are also amazing. But even they cannot completely mask the downstream effects of poor quality code.

You say you don't care, but I bet you do when you're dealing with a problem caused by poor code quality or bad choices made by the developer.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#206

Post by Almondsetat »

Ensorceled wrote: post #183
Dumblydorr wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it wildly uneducated to not know any of the games you mentioned? I didn’t realize education covered less known video games? Wouldn’t a better example be No Man’s Sky, if we’re talking procedural gen and eventually a good game. In any case, I agree that gamers by and large don’t care to what extent the game creation was automated. They are happy to use automated enemies, automated allies, automated armies and pre-m…

> Is it wildly uneducated to not know any of the games you mentioned? I didn’t realize education covered less known video games? Yes. It is "wildly uneducated" to have, and express, strong opinions about ANY field of endeavour where you are unfamiliar with large parts of that field.

Large? That's your opinion

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#208

Post by endymion-light »

utopiah wrote: post #187
endymion-light wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha it's a good analogy, i'm being a little bit argumentative for the sake of it potentially. I guess in my view - the main alternative you'd have beforehand is just to drown. For me, AI sits in a space where if you know how to use it, it can tell you all the thin spots of the ice accurately. You can then verify those spots, but there's a level of personal responsibility of verification. I'd agree there's currently…

> AI sits in a space where if you know how to use it, it can tell you all the thin spots of the ice accurately. You can then verify those spots, but there's a level of personal responsibility of verification. Right, but AFAICT most people just venture over the ice and don't bother to check. In fact a lot of people venture there, do check once or twice, then check less and less frequently. The fact that you do it is g…

Very true - I won't dispute it!

I'd only argue that people were doing this before AI, slop development was just copy pasting from the first stack overflow issue that matched the question rather than thinking

So i'd argue there's a part of it that is just personal responsibility with how these tools are used

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#209

Post by hiddevb »

BloondAndDoom wrote: post #191
raincole wrote: post #34

> Video games stand out as one market where consumers have pushed back effectively No, it's simply untrue. Players only object against AI art assets. And only when they're painfully obvious. No one cares about how the code is written. If you actually read the words used in Steam AI survey you'll know Steam has completely caved in for AI-gen code as well. It's specifically worded like this: > content such as artwork,…

One the topic procedural generation; rogue likes are all about it and new generation Diablo like games have definitely similar things, well respected new games like Blue Prince. There has never been such as successful period of time for procedural generation in games like now, and all of these are pre-AI. AI powered procedural generation is wet dream of rogue-like lovers

I don't think I agree with this take.

I love procedural generation, and there is definitely a craft to it. Creating a process that generates a playable level or world is just very interesting to explore as an emergent system. I don't think LLMs will make these system more interesting by default. Of course there are still things to explore in this new space.

It's similar to generative/plotter art compared to a midjourney piece of slop. The craft that goes into creating the code for the plotter is what makes it interesting.

Re: The L in "LLM" Stands for Lying

#210

Post by luxuryballs »

topaz0 wrote: post #197
notepad0x90 wrote: post #185

The framing of an LLM's response as truth vs lie is in itself incorrect. In order to lie, one needs to understand what truth and objective reality are. Even with people, when a flat-earther tells you the earth is flat, they're not lying, they're just wrong. All LLM output is speculation. All speculation, by definition, has some probability of being incorrect. --- We can go even deeper in a philosophical sense. If I m…

They're not saying the LLM is lying; they're saying the human user is lying by using the counterfeit as though it were the genuine artifact.

I dunno if counterfeit is the right word here, a lab grown diamond is still a diamond.
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