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Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

theregister.com

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Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#201

Post by SR2Z »

Throaway1982 wrote: post #200
theamk wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed MR2Z's argument: there are more people in the world than luddites and factory owners. During industrial revolution, the clothes (and other fabrics) were getting dramatically cheaper. A family that could only afford cheapest clothes could now get a higher quality stuff. A family that could not afford any clothes at all, could now get cheap stuff. This is what the luddites wanted to stop. It's not "luddites…

Except for the fact that the Luddites' labour grievances could easily have been addressed by the factory owners (rise in pay, better conditions) while still offering cheaper fabrics through industrialization. There was simply no desire to do so. No one was saved from freezing to death by cheaper textiles. People did starve to death and turn to things such as alcohol due to labour displacement during Industrialization…

> No one was saved from freezing to death by cheaper textiles.

Citation needed for that one.

> Except for the fact that the Luddites' labour grievances could easily have been addressed by the factory owners (rise in pay, better conditions) while still offering cheaper fabrics through industrialization.

So how long would the employers be required to pay them, in your mind? A year? Ten? A lifetime?

It would be the end consumer of the textile that would have to pay for those former textile workers to do nothing.

People can find new jobs when the world changes. It's not pleasant, but it's frankly a lot better than trying to force their old employer to keep them on payroll in a job where they can't do work.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#202

Post by Retric »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #197
Retric wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsidies as a concept includes spending 1% as much on subsidies. Subsidies as they exist now however are a specific system that’s incredibly wasteful. Producing dramatically less food and ending obesity are linked. If the average American eats 20% less obesity would still be an issue, but that’s a vast amount of farmland we just don’t need. The current system isn’t designed to accommodate increased agricultural prod…

You want to solve obesity by ... making food cost more? Assuming I've understood you correctly then I think it would be difficult for us to be more opposed to one another. I want basic necessities to be as cheap as possible. Preferably free. I'm happy to debate what sort of free food the government should or shouldn't be handing out, what measures could be put in place to minimize waste, etc. But from my perspective…

No, I’m saying solving obesity reduces the need for food. Did you not see the post directly below this one posted 6+ hours before your comment where I said:

“For clarity, Ozempic etc have actually measurably decreased food consumption.”

Technology isn’t going backwards, we can expect increasingly effective medications with fewer side effects at lower costs to drive down food demand over time. Policies designed to prop up production in the face of falling demand are deeply flawed.

If you want to give people money, give them money, don’t give them lots of money so they can keep a little bit while they waste resources producing something without value.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#203

Post by MisterTea »

thedanbob wrote: post #131
falcor84 wrote: post #122

I should probably confess that as someone who lives in an area with a lot of construction work, I'm also very vulnerable to "prompt injection" when there's a person standing on the middle of the road holding a sign telling me to change course.

I once encountered an intersection with a big "NO ENTRY" sign on the other side. I turned but google maps wouldn't give me another route, so I did a u-turn and came back to it from the side. Which meant I was close enough to read the small text underneath that said "vehicles under 10 tons excepted". I don't think I've ever been so angry at a road sign.

By my work there is a nice clean sign at the main intersection that reads "NO RIGHT ON RED" with a separate smaller crusty looking sign below it that reads "4 to 5 PM" using a much smaller font. Of course the stark difference in signs means everyone just reads the shiny top sign and waits for the green at all times. I keep wanting to modify the sign to highlight the time.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#204

Post by NobodyNada »

nxpnsv wrote: post #192
ncruces wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came across one in Italy that was meant to prevent you from using a street during school days from X to Y am, and Z to W pm, except on weekends, bank holidays and school holidays.

They don’t want cars near the school when kids are coming in or when they leave. That sounds like a sane approach to me…

The idea is well-intentioned, but implementing it by making drivers try to parse arbitrarily complex conditionals while driving is unwise.

There's a sign near my house for a school zone with a reduced speed limit, that used to have conditions similar to the GP's example (though not quite as bad) But they recently attached a yellow light to the top of the sign and changed the condition to "when flashing." That's a much more effective solution.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#205

Post by fc417fc802 »

Retric wrote: post #202
fc417fc802 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to solve obesity by ... making food cost more? Assuming I've understood you correctly then I think it would be difficult for us to be more opposed to one another. I want basic necessities to be as cheap as possible. Preferably free. I'm happy to debate what sort of free food the government should or shouldn't be handing out, what measures could be put in place to minimize waste, etc. But from my perspective…

No, I’m saying solving obesity reduces the need for food. Did you not see the post directly below this one posted 6+ hours before your comment where I said: “For clarity, Ozempic etc have actually measurably decreased food consumption.” Technology isn’t going backwards, we can expect increasingly effective medications with fewer side effects at lower costs to drive down food demand over time. Policies designed to pro…

Apologies, I saw it at the time but failed to follow. IIUC you're saying that subsidies will tend to ratchet in only the one direction.

To be clear I don't object at all to the idea of optimizing how subsidies are determined. I just don't think that subsidies and the resultant overproduction are a bad thing in general. I'm all for efficiency in the general case but I think a fair amount of paranoia is called for regarding long tail scenarios that lead to famine.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#206

Post by seanmcdirmid »

reactordev wrote: post #104
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn’t the rule either, I guess parent made their point. The first person who stops goes next, right away only matters if their is ambiguity in who stopped first.

This is not correct. There are clear instructions on how a 4-way stop should operate and its yielding to the right, if opposite cars are both moving forward, both can go, otherwise the car who has initiative has the right of way. Every driver must come to a complete stop. This is true in every state. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/rightofwayrules....

I've met people like you at 4 way stop signs. It is never a fun time.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#207

Post by hollerith »

dotancohen wrote: post #86
Retric wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an interesting question because the benefits of automation aren’t necessarily shared early on. If you can profitably sell a shirt for 10$ while everyone else needs to sell for 20$ there’s no reason to actually charge 10$ you might as well charge 19.95$ and sell just as many shirts for way more money. So if society is actually saving 5c/shirt while “losing” 9$ in labor per shirt. On net society could be worse off…

In regards to both the Luddites and the farmers, you seem to forget the most important factor. Food. In the case of the Luddites, it was a literal case of their children being threatened with starvation. "Livelihood" at the time was not fungible. The people affected could not just go apply at another industry. And there were no social services to help them eat during the transition period. As for the farmers, any gov…

>The people affected could not just go apply at another industry.

Can you explain why? I don't understand.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#208

Post by ncruces »

NobodyNada wrote: post #204
nxpnsv wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t want cars near the school when kids are coming in or when they leave. That sounds like a sane approach to me…

The idea is well-intentioned, but implementing it by making drivers try to parse arbitrarily complex conditionals while driving is unwise. There's a sign near my house for a school zone with a reduced speed limit, that used to have conditions similar to the GP's example (though not quite as bad) But they recently attached a yellow light to the top of the sign and changed the condition to "when flashing." That's a muc…

Thank you! You put in writing my exact intent.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#209

Post by Throaway1982 »

SR2Z wrote: post #201
Throaway1982 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the fact that the Luddites' labour grievances could easily have been addressed by the factory owners (rise in pay, better conditions) while still offering cheaper fabrics through industrialization. There was simply no desire to do so. No one was saved from freezing to death by cheaper textiles. People did starve to death and turn to things such as alcohol due to labour displacement during Industrialization…

> No one was saved from freezing to death by cheaper textiles. Citation needed for that one. > Except for the fact that the Luddites' labour grievances could easily have been addressed by the factory owners (rise in pay, better conditions) while still offering cheaper fabrics through industrialization. So how long would the employers be required to pay them, in your mind? A year? Ten? A lifetime? It would be the end…

"People can find new jobs when the world changes. It's not pleasant, but it's frankly a lot better than trying to force their old employer to keep them on payroll in a job where they can't do work."

This is what you don't understand. There was no re-tooling or re-training for the Luddites. This wasn't a 20th century downsizing situation. This was one step above slavery. They didn't just go get new jobs. They got extremely precarious work with no labour rights (at all) at lower pay than before and in competition with hordes of desperate unemployed labourers. This has nothing to do with free market economics like you're posting.

"citation needed for that one."

Actually no, you're the one who keeps saying that industrialization / replacing human workers with machines saved people's lives with cheap textiles, but you show no proof of this, so you're the one who needs a citation!

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#210

Post by tonyedgecombe »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #173
olyjohn wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah maybe for a few moments. So what? It's a low volume approach. Sometimes people gotta wait and sometimes waiting to let a massive traffic flow get through quickly is the better way to prevent larger traffic problems.

You've apparently never been stuck at a roundabout with non-stop commuter traffic streaming through.

We have roundabouts everywhere in the UK and that almost never happens.
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