Will you always offer an option to end users to disable the system if they so desire?
Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
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Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hi Daan, Thanks for the answer. Let me ask you something close with a more blunt angle: Considering most of the tech is already present and shipping in the current systemd, what prevents our systems to become a immutable monolith like macOS or current Android with the flick of a switch? Or a more grave scenario: What prevents Microsoft from mandating removal of enrollment permissions for user keychains and Secure Boo…
So adding all of this technology will certainly make it more easy to be used for either good or bad. And it will certainly become possible to build an OS that will be less hackable than your run of the mill Linux distro. But we will never enforce using any of these features in systemd itself. It will always be up to the distro to enable and configure the system to become an immutable monolith. And I certainly don't t…
> So adding all of this technology will certainly make it more easy to be used for either good or bad.
Then maybe you shouldn't be doing it?
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#203How long until you have SIL-4 under control and can demonstrate it?
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
The trick is the same: use a popular linux distribution and don't fight the kinks. The people who had no issues with Pulseaudio; used a mainstream distribution. Those distributions did the heavy lifting of making sure stuff fit together in a cohesive way. SystemD is very opinionated, so you'd assume it wouldn't have the same results, but it does.. if you use a popular distro then they've done a lot of the hard work t…
I only use debian pulseaudio I had to fight every single day, with my "exotic" setup of one set of speakers and a headset with pipewire, I've never had to even touch it systemd: yesterday I had a network service on one machine not start up because the IP it was trying to bind to wasn't available yet the dependencies for the .service file didn't/can't express the networking semantics correctly this isn't some hacked u…
> it's literally a new random problem every other boot because of this non-deterministic startup, which was never a problem with traditional init or /etc/rc
This gave me a good chuckle. Systemd literally was created to solve the awful race conditions and non-determinism in other init systems. And it has done a tremendous job at it. Hence the litany of options to ensure correct order and execution: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst...
And outside of esoteric setups I haven't ever encountered the problems you mentioned with service files.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
My thoughts exactly. We're probably witnessing the beginning of the end of linux users being able to run their own kernels. Soon: - your bank won't let you log in from an "insecure" device. - you won't be able to play videos on an "insecure" device. - you won't be able to play video games on an "insecure" device. And so on, and so forth.
Unfortunately the parent commenter is completely right. The attestation portion of those systems is happening on locked down devices, and if you gain ownership of the devices they no longer attest themselves. This is the curse of the duopoly of iOS and Android. BankID in Sweden will only run with one of these devices, they used to offer a card system but getting one seems to be impossible these days. So you're really…
Afaik bankid will actually run as long as you can install play store (IE the device don't need Google certificate), which isn't great but a little bit better than what it could have been.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
I only use debian pulseaudio I had to fight every single day, with my "exotic" setup of one set of speakers and a headset with pipewire, I've never had to even touch it systemd: yesterday I had a network service on one machine not start up because the IP it was trying to bind to wasn't available yet the dependencies for the .service file didn't/can't express the networking semantics correctly this isn't some hacked u…
I can totally relate to this, it's gotten to the point that I'm just as scared of rebooting my Linux boxes as I was of rebooting my windows machine a couple of decades ago. And quite probably more scared.
everyone attacking Microslop for a bug where Windows won't shut down properly
well, systemd's got them beat there!
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Ubuntu Core" is a similar product [1] As I understand it, the main customers for this sort of thing are companies making Tivo-style products - where they want to use Linux in their product, but they want to lock it down so it can't be modified by the device owner. This can be pretty profitable; once your customers have rolled out a fleet of hardware locked down to only run kernels you've signed. [1] https://ubuntu.c…
This sounds like a net negative for the end user
Not if the end user is an operator of safety critical equipment, such as rail or pro audio or any of a number of industries where stability and reproducibility is essential to the product.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
...and the moon.
You'll understand if I don't think the tradeoffs were necessary, or worthwhile.
Ambition does really weird things to people.
But I'm sure in this case when they achieve some kind of dominant position and Microsoft offers to re-absorb them they will do the honorable thing.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
Could you give an example system-level quadlet that accepts connections on a low port, like 80, but runs the actual container as a non-root user (and plays nice with systemd, no force kill after timeout to stop, no reporting as failed for a successful stop)? My understanding is quadlet does not solve this, and my options are calling "systemctl --user" or "--userns auto". I would love to be wrong here.
I solved the port 80 issue by adding AmbientCapabilities=CAP_NET_BIND_SERVICE to the Service section of the unit file. That lets you bind privileged ports while still defining a User= line to run non-root. The lifecycle management seems solid in my experience, no force kills required.
Well, thank you, I will give it a try