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East Germany balloon escape

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201–210 of 324 posts

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A peaceful transition of power is nothing to sneer at. After a revolutionary change, they are rare.

Yes, here in Poland 36 years later people still seriously argue the country would be much better if we hanged the communists off lampposts (like it was done in few other places). There ws a great cost to a "peaceful transition". The entire judiciary was basically full of extremely corrupt people, half of the political class. Even today when the old judges are almost all gone the horrible culture they had still corrup…

"Should we have put 500,000 people to death?" sounds like pub conversation, to be frank. There are plenty of options between 'no repercussions for the old regime' and Rwanda.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy = elect whoever the people actually want to elect, even if you don't like their choice. That rather rules out what happens in, say, the USofA, where entrenched party politics limits the choice of the wider population to those few candidates that are backed. > Some people reapply that definition to the word "populism". No, it's real democracy to elect the people's choice. Populism isn't democracy, democrac…

> > Democracy = elect whoever the people actually want to elect, even if you don't like their choice. That rather rules out what happens in, say, the USofA, where entrenched party politics limits the choice of the wider population to those few candidates that are backed. It’s also weird in that the candidate with the most votes might not win. The electoral system is weird.

That's not weird at all. Democracy as the word is commonly used does not require direct popular vote, let alone at the highest tier of government. Every "democratic" country I'm aware of uses a more complicated scheme.

Then you've got the part where the US was never billed as a "democracy" to begin with but rather a "democratic republic".

What's weird to me is how quickly a group with an advantage will attempt to discard compromises and other agreements once they have what they wanted.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#203
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since West Germany considered East Germany to be occupied territory, East Germans had automatic citizenship in the west. This made it uniquely easy to emigrate into the much wealthier country.

Well apart from the high chance of being killed at the borders.

Sure, but they did have a place to go to. Unlike all the other people that risk getting killed at a border

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#205
post #63

The GDR was a showcase state that, much like the DPRK, being on the periphery of the communist block, was propped up by USSR so that direct comparisons with its capitalist neighbor wouldn't be so unflattering. One of the most important forms of assistance the GDR and other satellites received was cheap energy. In the case of the GDR, through the Friendship Pipeline. One only need look at the DPRK to see how vital thi…

> yet the only option for citizens of the GDR and other communist states

yawns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_Soviet_Union_aliyah

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#206

It is interesting how dictatorships for resourceless countries needed to keep the people in like east germany or czechoslovakia. But current dictatorships with natural resources like Venezuela or Iran let dissent go. It makes them more stable sadly.

As a Venezuelan, I think the difference is not the Natural Resources, or at least is not the main difference. In 2017, the shortages and economic crisis generated by 15 years of communist policies has pushed around 4 million people out, and then, the regime "elected" a Constitutional Assembly which has the power to create a new Constitution and to overrid any previously elected organism (as it was at the time the opossition controled National Assembly).

At that point I leaved Venezuela inmediatly with my 2 minor aged kids, because for me it was a NO BRAINER that the first thing they will do was to limit the emigration and the free ciruculation. My train of tought was very simple. As any other Socialist Dictatorship before, this one needs to halt the staggering loss of skilled proffesionals like Medics, Engineers or whatever they deemed of National Security, I mean, you still need Doctors, you still need the Electricity and Water to get into the industries and houses, and specially for Venezuela, you need to keep the Oil flowing off the earth...

BOY WAS I WRONG, they never put a formal limit to the emigration and at least another 5 million people leaved Venezuela (so far). It did not matter at all that the already in shambles Public Health system collapsed, they doctors that stayed were private and they attended only the capacity that could pay for the scarse services, the basic services did not matter that much either, as people got use to get them once or twice per week, and even a country wide blackout of 3 weeks was not the end of the regime, and the Oil, well, does not matter either because what was once 3.5 million barrels per day went to be as low as 300.000 bpd.

So, what was the difference? well, for all its downfalls, it seems to me that the XX century Communist/Socialist dictatorships were guided by Ideology, they really thought theirs ideas were for the better of their people, so having no Healthcare was a REAL PROBLEM, having no public services was a REAL PROBLEM. Of course, their recipes were doomed as their political ideals, but at least they tried.

The Venezuelan Regime has no Ideology (it has some in form of propaganda, but that is different that actions) as the latest news can attest, They couldn't care less about the people and the wellness. They did not use any "Natural Resouces" to keep any level of living conditions, they just let loose the ruins of the economy they had messed so badly to let the most savage neoliberalism to correct the course while they stayed in power to keep leaching two sources of income, whatever oil they could produce and the drugs operations revenue, alongside their cut on any business their allies (AKA "Enchufados) could come up in the "liberalized" economy.

All the people that leaved the country (including me) just made them easier to keep control of whatever was left. Ever decreasing political or social opposition, less pressure of the shambles public services and so on and on...

The Natural Resources is just a part of their Income, it does not affects the hability to control or to even extract richness from the system.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#207
post #180
post #155

- What capitalists did in 6 months that communists didn't manage in 50 years? - Make communism look good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_nostalgia

Communism and socialism have always looked good when compared to the principles of other economic and political doctrines: - No poor people; everyone supported by the State; Everyone works for the common good; shared resources no matter how lucky or unlucky you are… From an intentional and moral perspective, nothing can beat it. However it fails and will always fail because of a couple of important reasons: - it requ…

Those 50-60-70+% of people in former communist states don't "romanticize", they just remember being better. Utopia - no, but better than capitalism. Without an example of a communist state shielded from constant attacks, sabotage and sanctions from the dominant capitalist we will never know how good it could get. We just know the imperfect as it was, it was still better.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#208

Poor family members though

I recently read a book of interviews with people who escaped from North Korea, and what shocked me was the discovery that the relatives of those who escaped are often executed (publicly) and that even children are executed in North Korea. We live in a terrible world. I mean... you expect a book from North Korea to contain terrible things, but somehow it was even worse than I expected.

Re: East Germany balloon escape

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We hear far more about the precursor than the GDR, don't we? (Actually its immediate precursor was Allied Occupied Germany with the GDR being the Soviet zone.)

Do we? I’d say it’s pretty close, especially if you include every time that someone shrieks ‘that’s socialism,’ or ‘that’s communism’ every time any social programme is proposed. Eg: Shall we improve public healthcare?

By "we", I didn't mean Americans, but weaterners. We have the National Health Service where I live and it is a complete mess (I know someone who waited over seven years for a jaw operation, another who has several years to wait for autism screening). I don't want the American system, and the basic principle of the NHS is good but still....

This AI slop is a pretty accurate description of my local medical practice (bar the cheap joke at beginning and everyone having an English accent): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w3U25wNyVRw

We hardly ever hear about East Germany or all the horrors of living in such a place. Very rarely these days. I've known quite a few people who lived under that regime and they told me what it was like. Everyone was being watched, and even school children had to write spy reports on their neighbours. All while the East German state kept proclaiming how it was a place of freedom and equality.

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