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Fahrplan – 39C3

fahrplan.events.ccc.de

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Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#201

Post by immibis »

holowoodman wrote: post #188
immibis wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you think the old-school CCC would be happy with a guy walking onto the stage and yelling the N word over and over, or would they kick him out? Because that's the quality of "speech" they now support "censoring".

Being (un)happy about something is totally different from creating and promoting an oppressive censorship apparatus, criminal laws and police actions against that something. Imho: You don't have to like that person yelling that stuff. You don't have to like what they are yelling. But you have to accept that it has to be their legal right to yell that stuff. Because otherwise, any opinion will one day be a criminal th…

You actually don't have the legal right to walk on stage at C3 and yell the N word repeatedly. The fact you think you have or should have that right means I am not the extremist in this conversation.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#202

Post by immibis »

holowoodman wrote: post #184
saubeidl wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is what right wingers do speech that should be protected, but not what the "Zentrum fuer politische Schönheit" does? There's a certain hypocrisy in all right wing demands for free speech. They always mean freedom of their speech, not of people they disagree with.

There is quite a difference between "speech" and what ZfpS does. Their actions are often criminal, and not in the sense of "political crimes" but actually criminal acts that have nothing to do with speech or opinions. They have doxed people and called for violence against them, they have exhumed dead children and paraded around their corpses, stolen things, stuff like that.

Do you think KiwiFarms deserved to be banned from Cloudflare and all its other former service providers?

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#203

Post by sunaookami »

immibis wrote: post #189
sunaookami wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>like journalists reporting about infiltrating a Great Replacement conference hosted by the second biggest political party here. And making stuff up that was never talked about there to start a political movement to get that party banned? Yeah nice democracy and journalism there.

Were you at this conference?

You can ask the court that forbid repeating this made-up stuff ;)

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#204

Post by farhaven »

holowoodman wrote: post #158
yc-kraln wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially as congress has, for as long as I remember, been about the superset of infosec, society, art, etc. IMHO it's more along the lines of complaining about any ride that isn't a roller coaster at a theme park--no one is forcing you to go on any rides, other people clearly enjoy them, they're not taking anything away from your roller coaster, and having them increases the diversity of the crowd in an ultimately…

Congress has become a radical leftist politics playground. That is the real problem. > Some people just like to complain that they have to take a shower and can't harass women like they used to like they could when congress was at the BCC and that kind of nonsense didn't immediately get you thrown out like today. You could never do that. A few years ago, some activists tried to make a fuzz with stuff like creeper car…

> Congress has become a radical leftist politics playground.

I don't know which past Chaos Communication Congresses you have attended, but it always was. If that's not for you, then that's too bad.

> The one thing you cannot ever do is go to CCC and express any idea that isn't very far left. That is a very certain way to get thrown out.

Opinions that people get thrown out for are not "I love my country" or "hey, maybe immigration should be handled differently". They're things like "Hitler was ok, actually". And IMO if a conference doesn't throw you out for _that_, it's not one worth attending.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#205

Post by farhaven »

shmeeed wrote: post #14

Me and some friends used to attend the CCC some 15-20 years ago. Back then, we just showed up at the entrance on the first day and bought our tickets there. This year we were toying with the idea of going for a revival. But man, did we underestimate how much this event has grown... Tickets in the second presale round were gone within 1-2 seconds. We didn't stand a chance. I feel like we failed the entry exam tbh. Any…

If you're looking for a similar event, you might want to check out GPN - Gulaschprogrammiernacht (https://gulas.ch).

It skews a bit more German, but it's essentially a smaller "summer congress" that used to have free attendance until this year (tickets now cost 10€ to cover the breakfast, IIRC). A lot less people there, but the general vibe is very similar.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#206

Post by jasonvorhe »

saubeidl wrote: post #170
toxik wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could use exactly the same rhetoric to make the opposite argument.

Sure, but you would be denying reality. Look at the political reality in Europe and the US. How many countries are led by the far right? What about the far left?

Just because you don't see the "far left" doesn't mean it isn't there. Would you consider CDU in Germany to be conservative or even Christian right now? I've been far left all my life until I noticed how fake it all is. Sane goes for the right. now I'm just following truth. It's a lonely path.

All the best & I hope you had a Merry Christmas as well.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#207

Post by aleph_minus_one »

immibis wrote: post #202
holowoodman wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite a difference between "speech" and what ZfpS does. Their actions are often criminal, and not in the sense of "political crimes" but actually criminal acts that have nothing to do with speech or opinions. They have doxed people and called for violence against them, they have exhumed dead children and paraded around their corpses, stolen things, stuff like that.

Do you think KiwiFarms deserved to be banned from Cloudflare and all its other former service providers?

> Do you think KiwiFarms deserved to be banned from Cloudflare and all its other former service providers?

I do believe that providers of such services such as cloud, internet, ... have to stay neutral on such purposes under nearly all circumstances. If the team behind KiwiFarms did something illegal, this is a problem for the judicial system.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#208

Post by eqvinox »

Sol- wrote: post #134
user764743 wrote: post #113

I'll never get people who say that there is too much politics at a god damn hacker conference like the CCC, considering The Chaos Computer Club was founded in 1981 specifically to be a political watchdog. more so especially since the very act of "hacking" is a political statement because it involves redistributing power over information. Code is law, remember? That would be like complaining about "too much law" at a…

The shape of the politics changed, though. From civil rights, questioning authority and cypherpunk, which inherently has a libertarian bent, there's now much more identity politics and social justice / grievance culture with only tenuous connections to tech. For a hacker conference, they also are pretty Luddite against new technologies like AI. It's a very conservative degrowth movement nowadays, all in all.

> For a hacker conference, they also are pretty Luddite against new technologies like AI.

No, just this one, because it steals from almost everyone and gives to the few. Even if it seems to be somewhat failing at monetization for now, control is in the hands of a very few.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#209

Post by plastic-enjoyer »

holowoodman wrote: post #158
yc-kraln wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially as congress has, for as long as I remember, been about the superset of infosec, society, art, etc. IMHO it's more along the lines of complaining about any ride that isn't a roller coaster at a theme park--no one is forcing you to go on any rides, other people clearly enjoy them, they're not taking anything away from your roller coaster, and having them increases the diversity of the crowd in an ultimately…

Congress has become a radical leftist politics playground. That is the real problem. > Some people just like to complain that they have to take a shower and can't harass women like they used to like they could when congress was at the BCC and that kind of nonsense didn't immediately get you thrown out like today. You could never do that. A few years ago, some activists tried to make a fuzz with stuff like creeper car…

> Congress has become a radical leftist politics playground

Which is fucking based. Being a radical leftist should be normalized even more and people like you need to be driven out of _every_ fucking public space.

Re: Fahrplan – 39C3

#210

Post by ranger_danger »

saubeidl wrote: post #178
holowoodman wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You see it in action here, where the politics of the CCC, despite not having changed since their founding are suddenly decried as "very far left". No, things have changed in CCC as well. Back in the day, free speech (in the US definition) and a firm opposition to any censorship were consensus on CCC. Nowadays, censorship is totally OK if it targets the right. And any kind of remotely right-wing opinion is declared…

Why is what right wingers do speech that should be protected, but not what the "Zentrum fuer politische Schönheit" does? There's a certain hypocrisy in all right wing demands for free speech. They always mean freedom of their speech, not of people they disagree with.

Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

- Wilhoit's Law

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