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Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

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Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#201

Post by torginus »

podgorniy wrote: post #20

Good for them. During economic downturns, when fewer resources are available for redistribution, collective action across population groups can help address worsening power imbalances.

Well, this economic downturn might have something to do with the games industry continuing to push out products that nobody wanted (or were no good in the first place) at absolutely lavish budgets. It didn't seemingly come out of nowhere.

Cue Concorde.

If you spend half a billion, to make a game that's five multiplayer maps, fail to do any market research, to find out that the part of your audience that isn't indifferent to your game actively hates it, playing the role of innocent victim subject to the whims of evil studio execs, is somewhat unproductive.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#202

Post by izacus »

billy99k wrote: post #182
podgorniy wrote: post #20

Good for them. During economic downturns, when fewer resources are available for redistribution, collective action across population groups can help address worsening power imbalances.

When companies aren't doing well either, demanding more money will only result in bankrupt companies and out sourcing. It's probably the worst time to do it. I've only seen unions work well in the long-run with government jobs. The USPS is a good example. Mostly because you really can't fire the workers and the main entity won't ever go out of business because of government bailouts.

Companies are doing amazingly well by any metric. They just refuse to share with their employees.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#203

Post by frmersdog »

echelon wrote: post #80
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business. You would have to be an enormous asshole to say "it'll result in a better equilibrium" to someone who just lost his job.

Also, this will result in more jobs being offshored. Hollywood unions were a sticking point. In 2022 and 2023, following the lead of Netflix and Amazon, most of those jobs moved from the US to Europe and Asia. Atlanta, which was booming for nearly two decades, which had built dozens of $500M class-A film production studios, is suddenly almost entirely vacant. We went from doing almost all of Marvel and Netflix to bei…

*chomping at the bit.

Ironically, China has also proven that you can't easily import expertise. At best, you can "steal" it over a long period of being the current industrial center's gopher.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#204

Post by Manuel_D »

salawat wrote: post #200
Manuel_D wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence that Id is being subject to some sort of no poach deal? Nobody doubts that employers can curb worker's ability to accept competing offers. The question is whether there's actually any evidence backing up the claim that Id employees aren't free to leave.

Doesn't need it to justify unionizing. Unionizing is a right, and it was previously not exercised because there was no evidence of the will of the market to defraud or conspire against workers . It is now written plain for all to see that indeed, these types of arrangements are kept in board members back pockets. It is not their job to protect a companies interest in renumeration execs and shareholders. It is their j…

I'm not disputing that employees have right to try and form a union.

I'm asking people who are insisting that Id employees are not free to accept competing offers to back up those claims with evidence.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#205

Post by palmotea »

Manuel_D wrote: post #44
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

The workers aren't drones, they have the agency to choose another job. If a company is underpaying workers relative to the rest of the market, they'll struggle to hire and retain employees without the interference of a union.

> The workers aren't drones, they have the agency to choose another job. If a company is underpaying workers relative to the rest of the market, they'll struggle to hire and retain employees without the interference of a union.

The problem is that all employers have certain common interests, and they are generally more organized and powerful than individual workers, which biases the market status-quo in their favor. The market doesn't fix that.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#206

Post by HumblyTossed »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #47
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

Perhaps. But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business. You would have to be an enormous asshole to say "it'll result in a better equilibrium" to someone who just lost his job.

Do I want a job that exploits me, or do I want no job at all.

Wow, quite the decision.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#207

Post by antonvs »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #47
popalchemist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company's existence depends on the unfair exploitation of its staff, its foreclosure is inevitable and justified, and that is simply the price everyone involved must pay to maintain equilibrium.

Perhaps. But that's cold comfort to someone who doesn't have a job because the company went out of business. You would have to be an enormous asshole to say "it'll result in a better equilibrium" to someone who just lost his job.

The entire capitalist economy is based on that principle.

In fact the crazy politics right now are largely a consequence of that: with all the factory jobs and similar jobs that were lost, the idea was that “the market” would somehow “correct” and all those people would get different, hopefully better jobs. But that didn’t happen, because it’s all an ideological fiction, right up there with the idea of trickle down economics.

But suddenly, when it’s about workers collectively standing up for their rights against the one-sided power of enormously powerful corporations, “you would have to be an enormous asshole”? There’s definitely an enormous asshole somewhere in this picture.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#208

Post by cogman10 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #190
cogman10 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who got convicted over Sears, KMart, and Toy's R Us? How about the slap on the wrist for the Sacklers for supercharging to opioid epidemic? What happened the the CEOs of GE from Jack Welsh on who steered the company on into the ground primarily through layoffs and cut-throat business management? There's plenty of examples of business owners driving a company into the ground to personally enrich themselves.

Not all of those were instances of the management purposely screwing people, but let's suppose some of them were. Should the conclusion then be that we should find ways to prevent that from happening again, or should it be that two wrongs make a right?

Not all businesses fail because of unions, but let's suppose some of them did. Should the conclusion then be that we should find ways to prevent that from happening again, or should it be that two wrongs make a right?

It goes both ways. There are plenty of nations with strong unions throughout. In the US some work is primarily done by unions (such as trade work).

The fact that someone can pull up an example where a union caused a business to go under doesn't make me think "we should eliminate unions". It doesn't even make me think "We should limit union negotiation powers" primarily because unions rights have been curtailed since the Reagan era.

If you wanted to convince me to get rid of unions, you'd do it by setting up robust workers rights nationally which unions provide.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#209

Post by Manuel_D »

jimbokun wrote: post #193
Manuel_D wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's keeping any one of these Id software developers from accepting a competing job offer elsewhere? Yes, there are scenarios where employees are stripped of agency. E.g a factory owner taking and holding foreign worker's passports. But if you're going to allege that something is preventing these works from accepting competing offers, you have to offer evidence for that claim.

Corporations have been caught colluding to suppress wages by refusing to hire anyone working for one of the other companies. How many of these collusions have not been brought to light?

You're asking me to prove a negative. Bosses at other companies have been caught locking employees in factories and physically preventing them from leaving.

Can I say for certain that this didn't happen at Id? No, but anyone making that claim ought to actually provide evidence that it happened at Id, not simple point to some other company that engaged in this behavior.

Re: Id Software devs form "wall-to-wall" union

#210

Post by popalchemist »

buellerbueller wrote: post #151
Manuel_D wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's keeping any one of these Id software developers from accepting a competing job offer elsewhere? Yes, there are scenarios where employees are stripped of agency. E.g a factory owner taking and holding foreign worker's passports. But if you're going to allege that something is preventing these works from accepting competing offers, you have to offer evidence for that claim.

WHat's keeping a company from providing fair wages, fair labor practices such that unions are unnecessary? EDIT: I guess you can just downvote, sure, but why not engage?

You are correct. Unions do not exist to exploit employers, they exist precisely to make working conditions acceptable (livable) and no more, most of the time. There are outliers, like Police unions, which have ulterior motives, but on the whole it is a labor movement meant to prevent the abhorrent conditions to which capitalism naturally backslides, which we saw after the industrial revolution.
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