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EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

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Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#201
post #181
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the state is continuity of the state. The state is always the natural enemy of the people - specifically the liberty and privacy of the people. Any time you have a government, you will have a government that wishes to spy on you to make sure you will never attempt a competing government/army.

What alternative do you propose?

There's no alternative, it's constant battle for freedoms and liberties.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#202
post #77

At this point, it’s clear these sort of measures will go through, if not now but in some foreseeable future. What would be our best bet moving forward? Moving to signal/telegram?

Overlay networks + libre and open-source software only (preferrably with reproducible builds).

Yes I believe one way to see what is happening is in fact our own mistake. We thought we could prevent those law of being signed but it was very naive.

The only way you fight this is by moving forward and faster than them. Because their eternal weakness is that they are slow and somehow stupid. But tech oriented people got pretty lazy in the last 2 decades:

- We let ISPs be the only gatekeeper of the Internet

- We let big tech dominate the mobile OS space

- We embrassed the Cloud and SaaS (not your computer)

These 3 things made us sitting duck to any authoritarian government and now we pretend to be surprised we are getting shot.

Here is what we can do before it is too late:

- Buy a $10-20 LoRa device and setup Meshtastic, Meshcore or Reticulum https://reticulum.network/

- Buy one for a friend

- Run openwrt and consider things like like B.A.T.M.A.N https://www.open-mesh.org/

- Connect and explore yggdrasil https://yggdrasil-network.github.io/

- Try I2P https://geti2p.net

- Get into a protocol like NNCP https://www.complete.org/nncp/

- Self-host at least a few services you can and care about

- Setup a DNS like https://opennic.org/

- A fair amount of understanding and use of the good parts of crypto/blockchain

- Get out of GMail, Outlook, iCloud, etc.

(there are probably many more)

It is gonna take the governments time to figure out what those things are and how to block and attack them.

Plus you will get more satisfaction and knowledge than with writing HELM charts, web apps or using AI.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#203
post #181
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the state is continuity of the state. The state is always the natural enemy of the people - specifically the liberty and privacy of the people. Any time you have a government, you will have a government that wishes to spy on you to make sure you will never attempt a competing government/army.

What alternative do you propose?

I've always advocated a proliferation of overlapping "states." Let them keep each other in check.

Instead of having a tree with a king at the top and your local police station at the bottom, be a part of the governance for the river that you live near, for the city that surrounds you, for the grocery store in your neighborhood, for your local fire department, and let all of them have codified relationships with each other that are determined by codified processes.

I believe the limitation on this was technological; that we had to get people into a room, get Robert's Rules out, and shout our way into decisions. Those limitations are gone; we all have phones. We should be able to participate in the governance of everything, or if we really don't want to think about that crap, hand our proxy to someone who does, get alerts on what they're doing with it, and revoke or transfer it instantly.

Let's see some real social networking.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#205
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

This type of legislation should never ever be proposed in a democratic system, so had disagree. This is an extremely totalitarian-style move from EU - governing bodies are exempt from the law, meanwhile peasants have to be watched 24/7 for wrongthink, all under guise of protecting the children.

While I agree with the sentiment, you need to think like a state to stop this kind of thing.

Even without any argument about personal rights and what's totalitarian, I can't even square the circle of the unstoppable force of "the economy is dependent on encryption that can't be hacked" with the immovable object of "hostile governments and organised criminals undermine ${insert any nation here} and communicate with local agents via encryption that can't be hacked".

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#206
post #6

Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.

TFA mentions "european governments" but this legislation is proposed by a bunch of european members of parliament who in no way represent any governments and much less the commission or the union. In short it tries to depict a group of old farts as an overreaching snooping authority. I wonder who could have a vested interest in depicting the EU as a repressive regime...

Are you saying that a neutral observer would not see this as repressive?

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#207
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awareness of the reality, yes, but there's no reason to play people's emotions to get them "aware" of it - or in other words, get them angry about it.

This type of legislation should never ever be proposed in a democratic system, so had disagree. This is an extremely totalitarian-style move from EU - governing bodies are exempt from the law, meanwhile peasants have to be watched 24/7 for wrongthink, all under guise of protecting the children.

And while all this is happening, there are cases were peoples homes get search for comments on twitter. These are often in bad taste, but what tastes even worse is that the judiciary doesn't seem to understand proportionality anymore. Mean tweets carry higher sentences than raping someone, stern look at Germany here.

A judiciary in such a sorry state, that has not adapted to a changed reality, cannot be permitted to read private communications.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not with the lack of understanding of "process". But sheer frustration because there's nothing you can do as just a citizen. An unelected council of !notAyatollah has decided, and this thing is being pushed at glacier slow pace. If EU is a trade union this is a severe overreach, if EU wants to be a federation, there's not enough checks and balances. This is the crux of the problem. The issue is that this…

The Council is a meeting of the heads of state, all of which are elected in their respective countries. Your problem is with the leadership of countries, not with the EU as an institution. I agree that it is a problem btw, but I think you got the wrong culprit. This isn't pushed on the states by the EU, this is the states using the EU to push it and launder the bad publicity.

The culprit is correct. If the EU exists for political laundering, then it is the organisation which is harmful to the people's interests. Nobody voted for any of these heads of states on a platform of enacting Chat Control. That was not on the ballot or the platform of any party in any individual EU country. If it was, they would not have voted for it. If an individual party tried to initiate a chat control bill in its own country, it would surely face a massive reckoning at the next election[1]. Therefore, an individual party would likely not undertake to enact chat control. It is the existence of the EU which is enabling politicians to force undesirable legislation on their populace. In that environment, it is entirely correct to call the EU an un-democratic process. If it exists to pass legislation nobody would vote for and take the blame, then it will in fact be rightfully at blame and provide a strong motivation for people to exit the EU.

[1] In fact, we have helpfully seen this play out with our friendly early exiter. The remarkably self-destructive Labour party has passed their own absolute nonsense "online safety" bill, and are likely to be utterly destroyed in the next election with repealing the bill being part of the platform of the party that is polling at ~twice the share of the next largest party. With the EU providing blame-as-a-service, though, it is unlikely that anybody will be able to repeal Chat Control once rammed through, without exiting the EU entirely.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#209
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the state is continuity of the state. The state is always the natural enemy of the people - specifically the liberty and privacy of the people. Any time you have a government, you will have a government that wishes to spy on you to make sure you will never attempt a competing government/army.

[flagged]

"Democracy" is just a word. It means rule bu the mob, and adds no other details. Describe what you mean by it.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#210
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why I am obliged to surrender either a large and ever-growing slice of my attention or my one-over-400something-million share of sovereignty. Because your puny state is no match for the US, China or soon enough, India. Heck, even Russia in its current incarnation outmatches 80% of the EU countries. That's it, it's that simple, conceptually. It's basically the Articles of Confederation vs the Cons…

Why, then, is the supposed anti-US/China/India/Russia power bloc trying to pass laws to mandate absolute surveillance of all private communications? If the EU is going to continue attempting to legislate away people's freedoms for purposes that are completely out of scope for the reason it exists, then the natural result is that people will turn on the EU. There is little purpose in staving off the surrendering of in…

Every government has abhorrent proposals. This is a PROPOSAL.

Then proposals maybe turn into laws, through a complex process. We are HERE.

A good government doesn't have many with abhorrent LAWS.

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