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Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

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Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#201

Post by mathgeek »

throwaway290 wrote: post #159
mathgeek wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not right to treat a person who is e.g. elderly, or for some other reason has "fallen" behind the digital divide, as an inferior person with fewer rights and privileges. While it may not be moral, our entire world and society are set up to treat folks with more resources as superior people with more rights and privileges. Poorer folks fall behind the digital curve just as readily as they fall behind the profe…

> While it may not be moral, our entire world and society are set up to treat folks with more resources as superior people with more rights and privileges. I don't know about that. Ability to buy more != superiority and rights and privileges. I know a bunch of people who disdain the ultra rich and see them as the opposite of superior if anything. And rights are the same for everyone...

While morality is a different discussion for sure, I was only referring to how society as an organism views people. The wealthy undeniably have more rights and privilege than the poor.

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#202

Post by maratc »

jamal-kumar wrote: post #192
maratc wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what "that" was, and again, I had both the vaccination and the digital certificate to prove it; the system in place would not accept the real documents, so I fed it with other documents that it did accept.

Showing a QR code that belonged to someone else, like you know, the thing you said you did Eventually in a system like that they may refine their procedures and then you get dinged essentially...

The people who check your QR code with scanners on the entrance to a shopping mall (and refuse to let you in unless the scanner shows a green mark) are not the police nor the prosecution, and I have a good case to present to a judge in any case.

"The guy who went to jail" could be unvaccinated (or even infected) and presenting other people's certificates to enter an area for vaccinated people only (e.g. hospitals) where he might have endangered other people's lives; that's something that might be deserving jail time. I was vaccinated however, and by all means had the right to enter that shopping mall; I just wasn't able to prove it to the imperfect system that was there to check.

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#203

Post by voxic11 »

vel0city wrote: post #183
mystifyingpoi wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, that's why, ok. Didn't know they are combined.

I mean, they don't have to be. You can often get a state ID card and a driver's license, but that's essentially redundant. More fees, more time, more paperwork. Things that require an ID just require some state or federally issued photo ID, so you can use a DL, a state ID, a passport, etc. When the extreme majority of adults are already needing a DL to get groceries why bother with another ID.

I wasn't able to find any states where this is the case. They all appear to have rules that say you can only be issued a state ID or a state drivers license but not both at the same time. Additionally federal REAL ID rules have the same requirement for REAL ID compliant identification.

https://legalclarity.org/can-you-have-a-non-driver-id-and-a-...

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-6/chapter-I/part-37/subpa...

So I think the only way to have a government ID card and a separate drivers license is to get a passport card and a state drivers license.

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#204

Post by stavros »

maratc wrote: post #200
stavros wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you're hoping they won't try to match the info on the screen with the info on the paper, which is very easy to foil (just don't skip the check).

If they need to match with the info on paper it's not clear what the case for "digital id" is? If one needs to present "digital id + paper id" one can simply present the paper id as they do today.

They won't. They'll just check the digital ID. I said you can't fake a digital ID, you said you've faked a physical ID, which isn't really relevant.

Digital IDs can't be faked. The only way to fake them would be to convert them to physical (what you did) and hope that the physical ID gets accepted.

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#205

Post by crazygringo »

the_other wrote: post #174
crazygringo wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be watchful for legislation requiring This is the paranoia I don't get. These are not things that are going to happen in the US, precisely because so many people (like yourself) are against it, and it's a democracy and people vote. So putting your drivers license on your iPhone isn't some slippery slope.

> These are not things that are going to happen in the US. Citation needed.

I already said why. But to go deeper: the US has, and has always had, a strong libertarian and anti-government streak among a very large proportion of its citizens. And it's not going away. That's why the US doesn't have a national ID, the way so many other countries do. That's why adults are not required to carry ID's with them, the way it is in many other countries.

These political values are a strong part of American culture. The distrust of central government and authority has been around since the founding of the country. They belong to the most durable of American values.

If the US still doesn't have a national ID, or require citizens to carry ID's, and there's literally no political movement towards that, what on earth makes you think this will change?

Being able to put a driver's license on your phone is state-level. It's a form of ID we're OK with. It can't be mandatory because not everyone can drive. There's zero slippery slope here. I just want to carry the card I already have to carry when driving or flying, on my phone instead of physically. There's zero downside here.

Is that enough citation for you?

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#206

Post by crazygringo »

voxic11 wrote: post #199
blessedwhiskers wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes every LEO, bodega, grocery store, etc. goes out and buys the terminals to read these things though. Assuming LEOs you encounter will never just say "sorry, my reader is broken, go ahead and unlock your phone so I can bring it back to my car and type in your info to look up your license" feels naive, especially for folks with darker skin tones. I agree it's possible to present your ID without unlocking yo…

Don't hand over your physical ID either. Unless you are driving no one can make you identify yourself with a government ID.

I think you're forgetting about flights. And country borders. And I'm not sure how much luck you're going to have opening a bank account... does your birth certificate work for that?

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#207

Post by crazygringo »

contagiousflow wrote: post #195
crazygringo wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "no thank you"? I am very much thank you. I'm still waiting for Apple to support the driver's license from my state. It will be one less thing to carry. There are literally no downsides. My state already had me in its electronic database because I'm a driver. The TSA already has me in its electronic database. Apple already knows exactly who I am from my many credit card purchases with them. It's not taking away a…

I'm guessing you're American? It's much different when a foreign company wants to provide this service to you.

Why? If anything, a foreign company seems to present less risk.

If you're concerned about the government getting your data, your own country can subpoena a company within its borders and get your info.

It's a lot harder to get your private data from a company outside of a country's borders.

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#208

Post by maratc »

stavros wrote: post #204
maratc wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they need to match with the info on paper it's not clear what the case for "digital id" is? If one needs to present "digital id + paper id" one can simply present the paper id as they do today.

They won't. They'll just check the digital ID. I said you can't fake a digital ID, you said you've faked a physical ID, which isn't really relevant. Digital IDs can't be faked. The only way to fake them would be to convert them to physical (what you did) and hope that the physical ID gets accepted.

That's kinda theoretic discussion by now. As the whole COVID thing is behind us, we can probably look at all the money that were spent in the world to create vaccination certificates, sign them, create the distribution network, distribute the certificates, build the verifying scanners, purchase them en-masse and pay the thousands of people who were standing at the entrance of numerous shopping malls and using these scanners to check the QR codes, only to create a system that is trivially bypassed by using a jpeg file.

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#209

Post by stavros »

maratc wrote: post #208
stavros wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't. They'll just check the digital ID. I said you can't fake a digital ID, you said you've faked a physical ID, which isn't really relevant. Digital IDs can't be faked. The only way to fake them would be to convert them to physical (what you did) and hope that the physical ID gets accepted.

That's kinda theoretic discussion by now. As the whole COVID thing is behind us, we can probably look at all the money that were spent in the world to create vaccination certificates, sign them, create the distribution network, distribute the certificates, build the verifying scanners, purchase them en-masse and pay the thousands of people who were standing at the entrance of numerous shopping malls and using these s…

I'm not sure how this relates to the main argument that "digital IDs are bad because they lead to perfect enforcement".

Re: Digital ID, a new way to create and present an ID in Apple Wallet

#210

Post by vel0city »

voxic11 wrote: post #203
vel0city wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, they don't have to be. You can often get a state ID card and a driver's license, but that's essentially redundant. More fees, more time, more paperwork. Things that require an ID just require some state or federally issued photo ID, so you can use a DL, a state ID, a passport, etc. When the extreme majority of adults are already needing a DL to get groceries why bother with another ID.

I wasn't able to find any states where this is the case. They all appear to have rules that say you can only be issued a state ID or a state drivers license but not both at the same time. Additionally federal REAL ID rules have the same requirement for REAL ID compliant identification. https://legalclarity.org/can-you-have-a-non-driver-id-and-a-... https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-6/chapter-I/part-37/subpa... So I…

Huh, interesting. It was legal here in my state until 2015, I didn't know that had changed.
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