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Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

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Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#201

Post by kmeisthax »

panick21_ wrote: post #142
kmeisthax wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulation isn't good enough. The government needs to make their own competing ISP. Hell, at least in the US, there's precedent for this: government builds and maintain all the roads; they run most transit and intercity rail operations; and they run physical mail delivery. At one point they even owned most of the railroads[0]. Communications and travel infrastructure are things government is moderately good at. For s…

> Hell, at least in the US, there's precedent for this: government builds and maintain all the roads; they run most transit and intercity rail operations; and they run physical mail delivery. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the US government is doing a terrible job at all of these.

Yes, but most of those problems aren't inherent limitations of government. They're specific missteps that could have been avoided, like:

1. The suburbanization of cities turning road-building into a Ponzi scheme and transit into a guaranteed money-loser. Lowering the density of cities dilutes the tax base while increasing the need for roads and cars to carry people on them.

2. America's absolutely stupid decision to privatize Conrail without retaining ownership over the trackage. Wall Street infected all of the Class I railroads and convinced them to downgrade their own infrastructure. Imagine if your local city had sold all the roads to a private company.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#202

Post by MichaelZuo »

toast0 wrote: post #183
MichaelZuo wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s still Google’s choice? They clearly didn’t publish a guarantee or an obligation that they will peer with anyone who meets the criteria.

Certainly, it's their choice. But I expect them to mostly follow through and peer with those networks that apply and meet their published requirements.

I know… I was the one who asked why that expectation formed…?

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#203

Post by 0xbs »

lorenzk wrote: post #177

I have had sporadic problems with Vodafone Germany’s IPv4 routing for months, sent detailed analyses and refused in advance to pay for any technicians they might send because the problem could not be on my property. They sent two technicians who confirmed my view. Then they charged me 160 EUR for them without fixing the issue.

They are NATing the IPv4s, i.e. multiple customers are sharing the same IPv4, which can cause problems. I called them and told them that I absolutely need to do port forwarding and asked nicely if I could get an exclusive IPv4. The support said „Of course, let me check the box in the UI for your account, should be active by tomorrow“ and done. You have to get lucky to get someone who understands your problem and is willing to fix it, though.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#204

Post by port11 »

thelaxiankey wrote: post #133
lwn wrote: post #48

I recently moved to a Dutch municipality that runs its own non-profit ISP. They installed a symmetric 1 Gbps fiber connection with a static IP at my house for 40 euros per month. The service is solid, there’s no upselling or throttling, and hosting things from home just works. I bring this up because when we talk about “open”, “fair” and “monopolies” the model of a local, non-profit ISP backed by the municipality cou…

i've wondered for a long time why this isn't a more common solution to these services that are almost inevitably monopolous. power, water, and internet kind of things.

In Europe these were largely publicly-owned, but the neoliberal tendency to privatise everything has slowly dismantled the public corporation.

My home country's formerly public energy provider has a weird share structure: a Chinese company and BlackRock add up to a fourth of the stock. No foreign investor should really be buying up stock in critical infrastructure.

This will always upset me.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#205

Post by port11 »

stego-tech wrote: post #39
danogentili wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current trend in govt regulation is actually going in the opposite direction, with telecom lobbies in Europe pushing for "fair share" (pretty much an implementation through law of what Deutsche Telekom and Vodafone Germany are doing right now) through the Digital Networks Act. South Korea pioneered "fair share" govt regulations in 2016 (which caused Twitch to exit the market in 2024 due the exorbitant "fair share…

Because western governments (and those whose governments were modeled from western regimes - like post-war South Korea and Japan) have become victim to regulatory capture and corruption. It’s why the FCC has repeatedly killed, blocked, or reversed reforms like net neutrality or “nutrition labels” on ISPs, and why South Korea gave in to “fair share” regulations that deterred further investment. Tech money is hugely in…

Lobbying amounts have gone up almost everywhere. This issue almost always comes down to regulators allowing Capital to purchase influence, such that regulations end up not being pro-citizen. I don't know how we fix this.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#206

Post by simonebrunozzi »

phineyes wrote: post #14

This isn't unique to Vodafone. Google has also been slowly withdrawing from IXes globally in favor of PNIs and "VPPs" (verified peering providers). This only makes it harder for smaller networks to establish presence on the internet and feels pretty anti-competitive. On the flip side, IXes are becoming harder and less desirable to participate in: port fees are going up, useful networks are withdrawing, low quality ne…

Notably, Chris Sacca (now a famous VC), when working at Google in the early 2000s, got in trouble for mentioning that telecoms were preventing Internet from being Net Neutral, and instead of being fired, he got promoted by Larry Page and given a huge budget to work on it. I can't find a reference but I'm almost certain this is correct.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#208

Post by deaux »

j-bos wrote: post #165
thelaxiankey wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i've wondered for a long time why this isn't a more common solution to these services that are almost inevitably monopolous. power, water, and internet kind of things.

Good explainer vid: https://youtu.be/CIEQPwf9MHY tldr: one town in the US did it and it became an economic miracle, big telcos noticed and have set up lobbying and advertising infra to ensure it never happens.

The video doesn't explain much. At the end, it says this:

> "The average voter doesn't understand how these systems work so there is little risk for [state] lawmakers in siding with these companies."

The million-dollar question is why those lawmakers are siding with these companies when the economic miracle case exists right in front of their eyes. The answer to that question is the real explainer.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#209

Post by panick21_ »

kmeisthax wrote: post #201
panick21_ wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hell, at least in the US, there's precedent for this: government builds and maintain all the roads; they run most transit and intercity rail operations; and they run physical mail delivery. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me the US government is doing a terrible job at all of these.

Yes, but most of those problems aren't inherent limitations of government. They're specific missteps that could have been avoided, like: 1. The suburbanization of cities turning road-building into a Ponzi scheme and transit into a guaranteed money-loser. Lowering the density of cities dilutes the tax base while increasing the need for roads and cars to carry people on them. 2. America's absolutely stupid decision to…

Ok, but if something has gone on for 70+ years its not a 'misstep' that something else.

And doing all these things very well is not easy even in the nations that do it 'best' and most nations are not in that class.

In terms of the Post Office for example, they had to kill their commercial competitor to establish a monopoly and held back more advanced competitors like FedEx with their monopoly. Thus useful services didn't exist for many decades where they could have existed.

Re: Vodafone Germany is changing the open internet, one peering connection at a time

#210

Post by PhilKunz »

noAnswer wrote: post #199
inemesitaffia wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The restriction is only to Google. 1299, a Google gold partner is at IXes

You know who else is gold partner and at IXes?! Inter.link! https://inter.link/google-verified-peering-provider/ "As Google discontinues its direct peering agreements at Internet Exchanges worldwide" Wait... does that mean that "Google is killing the open internet?!" Quick "write" a AI rage bait article about it.

I've learned quite a bit from the comments here, also got to see perspectives I wasn't focusing on. I've since then added a bit to the article about how one could be in favour of the deal. To be more transparent about changes, version history is coming to coffee.link.

The question I'm having is: Where exactly do inter.link and Google peer? Like either they are both at a public IXP (which would mean Google is not actually discontinuing peering, or you'd have to really define the "direct" in that quoted sentence), or one has a fiber cable to one of the others DC? How does that work? Any insights?

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