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Meeting A Troll

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Re: Meeting A Troll

#201

Post by jopt »

yread wrote: post #117
wamatt wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I loathe being the guy defending trolls, the level of judgement expressed in this thread is a bit troubling. Labeling this kid a 'pyschopath' might feel nice, but it's rather inaccurate. [1]. Specifically when he saw the damage he'd caused, a very human emotional response of remorse and regret kicked in. We have no reason to believe it's fake, especially given we weren't the one's there, and the author bel…

You can read more about the value of tears of a psychopath here http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2... Harris married his deceitfulness with a total lack of remorse or empathy—another distinctive quality of the psychopath. Fuselier was finally convinced of his diagnosis when he read Harris' response to being punished after being caught breaking into a van. Klebold and Harris had avoided prose…

So if he cries, it's because he's a witch trying to trick us?

Re: Meeting A Troll

#202

Post by cturner »

ary wrote: post #98
enneff wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you recommend for this kid, apart from counseling?

I'll speak for myself, as if I had a child that acted in this way. The first, and most important response would be to establish why . With actions like this being carried out in and from my own home I would have to immediately reassess my level of involvement with my child and whether or not I was culpable via omission. Very soon thereafter I would seek out the advice of people directly involved with the study and tr…

Particularly for those who are new to remote communication, it can be as trivial as not groking that this kind of interaction is just as real as face to face conversations. Just because you don't see the reactions doesn't mean that they're not there.

As we grow up, we're socialised with other people in the same space and you get trained to a kind of empathy. The patterns of interaction we reach by the time we're 17 aren't a default - if you spend time with people who were home-schooled you can detect that they evolve differently to kids schooled in the common form.

When we encounter remote communication, it's a new world. There's a much thinner feedback loop. Perhaps you usually use the other person's expression as a guide in your interaction, and then feel uncontained when it's missing. Without this constraint, a normally civil person become a monster.

Evidence that normal people become monsters is all around us:

1) Internet trolls, "I have an opinion. You aren't playing along. My opinion is sufficiently correct and the matter important enough that it's justified for me to grind you into the ground." And there's no tangible payback.

2) The way people talk in customer-to-business relationships, particularly where there is a difference in leverage and it's a one-off relationship. People in high leverage positions become accustomed to doing things without regard for the people they affect (e.g. insurance companies). It's common for people in low-leverage positions to become extremely aggressive in their conduct to try and compensate for a strategically poor position.

3) The way people drive. The driver sees themselves in a situation where they are competing for position. Subconsciously, "I don't care what you think because I'll never see you again." This is moderated somewhat by mandatory training, and by the risk of an accident which could create an embarassing and costly situation

4) Look at the way we behave towards animals we eat vs pets. The complex supply and investment chains are a machine that takes all kinds of humanity out of the field.

I've found a taste of distilled evil in the online version of the board game Diplomacy. The game is oriented around deception, with only minimal details of the other players.

I thought the handling of the matter excellent.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#203

Post by yread »

SilasX wrote: post #180
yread wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can read more about the value of tears of a psychopath here http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2... Harris married his deceitfulness with a total lack of remorse or empathy—another distinctive quality of the psychopath. Fuselier was finally convinced of his diagnosis when he read Harris' response to being punished after being caught breaking into a van. Klebold and Harris had avoided prose…

Okay, that would demonstrate that we should place little weight on expressions of empathy, but I disagree if the implication is supposed to be that it's evidence of psychopathy. Remember, genuinely remorseful people would say the same things to their victims. If you're going to take genuine-looking apologies as evidence for the psychopath diagnosis, then you're falling into the trap of "If she prays at the execution,…

I wasn't accusing or executing him -- just pointing out this other case I've read about (linked from HN, I think) where the psychopath faked emotions. I'm not even saying this boy faked them. Just that the fact that he broke down doesn't have to mean much.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#204

Post by reledi »

Jd wrote: post #200

One potentially but as of yet unmentioned aspect is the "game thing" itself. The fact that he refers to this as a "game," indicates that by means of some conspiracy theory site or other, he was more or less interacting with others in competitive harassment. Take the following potential scenario: Impressionable youth joins conspiracy site, finds lots of anti-semitic information. The youths of the forum are encourage t…

My thoughts as well. It was likely too difficult or embarrassing for him to reveal his true motivations and intentions in front of his family and his victim. Leo should have dug deeper.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#205

Post by btilly »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #132
gaius wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a strong case in the modern world for upping the age of maturity to say, 25.

How will that help? You don't solve the problem of people being immature even into adulthood by delaying the official onset of adulthood yet more. You solve it by treating teenagers as adults in training. Which used to be the case until very recently. Now we avoid giving responsibility to teens, we treat high school like day care or a prison, and we wonder why our "kids" don't magically acquire maturity when they tur…

Both points are accurate.

The case for upping the age of maturity to 25 is that there is solid brain science suggesting that that is how old we are when our brain finishes developing the ability to make mature decisions. See http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/tech_assistance/etraining/... for that.

However you're absolutely right that children who are never given responsibility never develop their ability to take responsibility.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#206

Post by Tichy »

philwelch wrote: post #194
Tichy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pretty sure it works, my question is do you want it for your kids?

Operant conditioning isn't actually harmful, as long as you're not operant conditioning your kids into doing harmful things or into not doing important things.

Well it seems to go against my values. I want my kids to think for themselves, not merely be executors of my authoritarian commands. I am not their boss.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#207

Post by Tichy »

junto wrote: post #139
beseku wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I think back to the decisions I made as a 17 year old (and an 18, 19, 20 ... year old) I think it is perfectly valid to call a 17 year old a child. At that age I would guess a large proportion can barely cook for themselves, have never lived alone, probably never paid a bill or shopped at supermarkets.

I often find the idea of "maturity" an interesting concept. We have a fairly fixed average lifetime expectancy, which can vary by a couple of years depending on where you live (on average). I think the global average is 68 years old for both sexes. The western world has an fairly fixed period of "maturing" into adulthood, which is usually achieved when the individual reaches 18 years old. Most countries then offer th…

"Without a doubt, we need to extend people's working lives (i.e. later retirement)"

How is this a given? Increased efficiency might counteract demographics. Hundred years ago a lot more farmers where needed to feed the same amount of people than today. If your phone can do your medical checkup, lots of medical aid workers can perhaps be freed to do other stuff.

I worry that we are being brainwashed on a constant basis by a rich elite to believe the "we have to work harder and longer" dogma. It doesn't make that much sense, given that we are a lot more technologically advanced than 50 years ago. Granted, the population has grown, too. All I want to say that I wouldn't take your claim at face value.

As for working children: sure, children can work. Does that mean they are adults? I think in our times it basically means being allowed to vote and make responsible decisions. You can still work in a coal mine following orders without being able to make responsible decisions.

Obviously people will do what they need to survive, but while we can, we should probably try to attain to a higher standard.

Even for the child laborers in India it is not a given that things have to be what they are. Yes, the current system makes it so - doesn't imply that there couldn't be another system. Paying their parents more might be a start.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#208

Post by junto »

Tichy wrote: post #207
junto wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often find the idea of "maturity" an interesting concept. We have a fairly fixed average lifetime expectancy, which can vary by a couple of years depending on where you live (on average). I think the global average is 68 years old for both sexes. The western world has an fairly fixed period of "maturing" into adulthood, which is usually achieved when the individual reaches 18 years old. Most countries then offer th…

"Without a doubt, we need to extend people's working lives (i.e. later retirement)" How is this a given? Increased efficiency might counteract demographics. Hundred years ago a lot more farmers where needed to feed the same amount of people than today. If your phone can do your medical checkup, lots of medical aid workers can perhaps be freed to do other stuff. I worry that we are being brainwashed on a constant basi…

I guess that is my opinion, as I personally see this as the most attractive option to solve the deficit. You can of course raise taxes, but that decreases fluidity. Decreased fluidity dampens growth, etc..

Re: Meeting A Troll

#209

Post by philwelch »

Tichy wrote: post #206
philwelch wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Operant conditioning isn't actually harmful, as long as you're not operant conditioning your kids into doing harmful things or into not doing important things.

Well it seems to go against my values. I want my kids to think for themselves, not merely be executors of my authoritarian commands. I am not their boss.

Children are not small adults. There's a point in their lives when not throwing temper tantrums in public is what you want out of them and they're just not mature enough to negotiate with reasonably. This is also the age where hopefully you're going to have to install some sort of conscience, since kids aren't really born with one, either.

Re: Meeting A Troll

#210

Post by Tichy »

junto wrote: post #208
Tichy wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Without a doubt, we need to extend people's working lives (i.e. later retirement)" How is this a given? Increased efficiency might counteract demographics. Hundred years ago a lot more farmers where needed to feed the same amount of people than today. If your phone can do your medical checkup, lots of medical aid workers can perhaps be freed to do other stuff. I worry that we are being brainwashed on a constant basi…

I guess that is my opinion, as I personally see this as the most attractive option to solve the deficit. You can of course raise taxes, but that decreases fluidity. Decreased fluidity dampens growth, etc..

What deficit?
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