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Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

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Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#201

Post by myth_drannon »

g8oz wrote: post #64
myth_drannon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate espionage is ever present but it is criminalized. The only time US as a country did that you can say "stole IP" was after WII when it took Nazi rocket scientists and technology. China is the opposite; stealing tech is done by the state apparatus (same was done by USSR and reverse engineering computers for example). Frankly I'm not surprised that this is done, probably if US was so behind it would have done…

You are mistaken about American intellectual property theft. They engaged in extensive IP theft from Britain in the 18th and 19th century with the encouragement of the government. See https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/the-spies-who-... Also during World War I the American government seized German chemical patents thereby launching the American chemical industry. So that is an example of theft by the state…

I'm talking about modern times, after WW2. Not when US had slavery and lynching, blacks was a form of entertainment.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#202

Post by Cyph0n »

corimaith wrote: post #184
brookst wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those students would have just gone to other countries, written their PhD dissertations there, advanced another country’s tech sector, and the US would have found the pain of isolationism that much sooner. It is not possible to keep core IP secret. HN folks, of all people, should know this. Anything that thousands of people know is de facto public knowledge.

How are you going to gain core IP research if you don't have experience or access to leading edge researchers to pass you knowledge in the first place? Talent is proportional to population, but that only matters if society and state has the infrastructure to raise that talent up. Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets.

> Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets.

The reason why these statements are not true is because of colonization, delayed industrialization, and Western intervention post-independence. Getting out of this “quicksand” is exceedingly difficult.

China did well to industrialize quickly and keep intervention at bay - in fact, you could argue that it making the rest of the world reliant on its industrial capacity helped address the intervention problem.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#203

Post by tw04 »

slaw wrote: post #199
tw04 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> History has shown that withholding technology from China does not significantly stop them and they'll achieve it (or better) in a small number of years. Really? How long has China been attempting to build their own jet engines? How long have they been attempting to build competitive CPUs? History has shown withholding tech successfully keeps them at least a generation behind the west. In some fields like CPUs they…

Jet engine since at least 2011. CPU since 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACAE_CJ-1000A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_Manufacturing_In...

>Jet engine since at least 2011

Huh? Did you read your own link? The jet engine that was shown at an aviation show as a non-functioning prototype in 2011, with hopes they'd have a functioning version by 2016, and in service by 2020 (it wasn't in service in 2020). Notice at the very top of your own article it says "still in development".

>CPU since 2000

That isn't remotely competitive, and at least a full generation behind.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#204

Post by slaw »

tw04 wrote: post #203
slaw wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jet engine since at least 2011. CPU since 2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACAE_CJ-1000A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_Manufacturing_In...

>Jet engine since at least 2011 Huh? Did you read your own link? The jet engine that was shown at an aviation show as a non-functioning prototype in 2011, with hopes they'd have a functioning version by 2016, and in service by 2020 (it wasn't in service in 2020). Notice at the very top of your own article it says "still in development". >CPU since 2000 That isn't remotely competitive, and at least a full generation b…

What 'since at least 2011' you don't understand?

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#205

Post by FpUser »

corimaith wrote: post #187
FpUser wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're talking about recognizing IP, I am talking about stealing IP ..." If country does not recognize IP then "stealing" is not a theft in their eyes. As for using force to prevent "theft": what force? Military? You might get burned really bad.

A military controlling the flow of goods into its own borders isn't going to "burn bad", it's called customs controls.

>"The issue is allowing the Chinese to steal IP and then compete in our markets with that stolen IP"

That was the original message. My understanding of "our markets" was customers of the US which include the US itself, China and many other countries. Sure the US can prohibit importing of China's goods. It can not control what happens in the rest of the world to the degree that it once could.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#206

Post by wagwang »

Cyph0n wrote: post #202
corimaith wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you going to gain core IP research if you don't have experience or access to leading edge researchers to pass you knowledge in the first place? Talent is proportional to population, but that only matters if society and state has the infrastructure to raise that talent up. Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets.

> Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets. The reason why these statements are not true is because of colonization, delayed industrialization, and Western intervention post-independence. Getting out of this “quicksand” is exceedingly difficult. China did well to industrialize quickly and keep intervention at bay - in fact, you could argue that it making…

This world view is just wrong from top to bottom. Between 1945-1970, China was in a much worser state that any of those 3rd world countries in many aspects. Are you saying post 1970, the reason why these countries did not develop as fast as china is because of colonialism and intervention? You can apply the same arguments to Japan in 45 and Korea in 50. But but but aid? Ok and we send billions to countries all around the world every year.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#207

Post by Cyph0n »

wagwang wrote: post #206
Cyph0n wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise Nigeria or Indonesia would be scientific powerhouses, and Iran would have modern fighter jets. The reason why these statements are not true is because of colonization, delayed industrialization, and Western intervention post-independence. Getting out of this “quicksand” is exceedingly difficult. China did well to industrialize quickly and keep intervention at bay - in fact, you could argue that it making…

This world view is just wrong from top to bottom. Between 1945-1970, China was in a much worser state that any of those 3rd world countries in many aspects. Are you saying post 1970, the reason why these countries did not develop as fast as china is because of colonialism and intervention? You can apply the same arguments to Japan in 45 and Korea in 50. But but but aid? Ok and we send billions to countries all around…

But I just pointed out that China is an exception? Also, China had access to human capital at a scale that no African country had.

Japan pre-45 was a world power, and had industrialized by the early 1900s. WW2 was a mere setback.

Korea is more of a “miracle” than Japan was, but they also did well to industrialize ASAP. They also didn’t face the brunt of European colonialism.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#208

Post by tw04 »

slaw wrote: post #204
tw04 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Jet engine since at least 2011 Huh? Did you read your own link? The jet engine that was shown at an aviation show as a non-functioning prototype in 2011, with hopes they'd have a functioning version by 2016, and in service by 2020 (it wasn't in service in 2020). Notice at the very top of your own article it says "still in development". >CPU since 2000 That isn't remotely competitive, and at least a full generation b…

What 'since at least 2011' you don't understand?

What part of "a non-functioning prototype" don't you understand?

Literally anyone can make a prototype jet engine. The metallurgy and process to make a functioning one is several orders of magnitude more difficult. Which is why... China still buys the vast, vast majority of their jet engines from Russia for military use. And their commercial passenger jets use engines from CFM.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#209

Post by hollerith »

huntertwo wrote: post #139
switchbak wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an odd category, and Japan is often considered to be "Western" - these days at least. That certainly wasn't the case even a few generations ago. I think it's ostensibly supposed to be more about shared cultural values, but even that is a pretty weak way to divide countries. Perhaps "an ally of the United States" is a little more accurate? Any societal dividing line like this is bound to hit on problems once sub…

I think Japan likely shares more values culturally with China than USA outside of political systems. In any aspect outside of that Japan is not western.

The leaders of Japan during the Meiji era (starting 1868) will be sad to learn that their attempt to thoroughly Westernize Japanese society failed even though it enabled Japan to dominate China (and most of the Western Pacific) for decades.

Re: Alibaba Cloud says it cut Nvidia AI GPU use by 82% with new pooling system

#210

Post by rayiner »

notepad0x90 wrote: post #190
rayiner wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. actually has more people age 25-64 with a college degree (about 90 million) than China (about 80 million).

Yeah, and lots more immigration too. I don't know if those are the ones with college degree, but you can see who's writing all the academic papers. Look up stats like the 3rd most popular language by state and you'll be surprised. There has been a huge effort to import doctors from all over for example, due to the shortage in the US. Even in our tech industry, you don't need to look far to see all the H-1B's. I can't…

Your argument was that the U.S. needs immigration to compete with China’s population advantage. But China doesn’t have a population advantage in college educated workers. China has to scale its educated workforce by sending more of its population to college. Which is certainly doable, but they are currently where the U.S. was 60 years ago.

Also, the U.S. has a fertility edge over China, which skilled immigrants do not contribute to. The birth rate of the groups comprising most skilled immigrants (Asians) is very low, much lower than for other Americans.

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