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AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

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Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reasonably confident that I know this subject area better than one could learn from three Google searches. “ISO noise” is not even a real term; you are talking about digital sensor noise, which can further be luminance noise or colour noise. Opinions about luma noise being “unaesthetic” are highly subjective, depending a lot on stylistic choices and specific sensor, and some would say luma noise on professional…

"ISO noise" is a thing I've heard on a few different film sets and it's a convenient shorthand for "the noise that becomes really apparent only when you crank up the gain". Now that I'm thinking about it, there's a good chance this is more of a thing where I'm from, since our native language doesn't have different words for grain and noise, so we have to diffentiate between them with a suffix, which we then incorrect…

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Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#202
post #50

Will streaming services ever stop over-compressing their content? I have a top-of-the-line 4K TV and gigabit internet, yet the compression artifacts make everything look like putty. Honestly, the best picture quality I’ve ever seen was over 20 years ago using simple digital rabbit ears. You especially notice the compression on gradients and in dark movie scenes. And yes — my TV is fully calibrated, and I’m paying for…

I pirate blu-ray rips. Pirates are very fastidious about maintaining visual quality in their encodings. I often see them arguing over artifacts that I absolutely cannot see with my eyes.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#203
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet I still only got hardware support for it on my first devices last year. The downside of "rapid" iteration on video codecs is that content needs to always be stored in multiple formats (or alternatively battery life on the client suffers from software playback, which is the route e.g. Youtube seems to be preferring).

Hopefully that improves. The guy giving the presentation on AV2 made clear there was "rigorous scrutiny for hardware decoding complexity", and they were advised by Realtek and AMD on this. So it seems like they checked that all their ideas could be implemented efficiently in hardware as they went along, with advice from real hardware producers. Hopefully AV2-capable hardware will appear much quicker than AV1-capable…

I have to wonder whether PCIe devices that do hardware encoding / decoding might be the more viable path going forward?

Wait, I just discovered GPUs, nevermind. [giggles]

Still, the ability to do specialized work should probably be offloaded to specialized but pluggable hardware. I wonder what the economics of this would be...

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#205
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well we might start streaming 8K content ! Or maybe this could be used for 16K VR videos

It's a shame European energy efficiency rules made 8K non viable. It's a great resolution.

Framerate and hdr are more important.

I don’t understand why 60fps never became ubiquitous, a pan scene in 30fps is horrible, its almost stroboscopic to me.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no way an FPGA would make sense. The requirements for AV1 and H265 far exceed the hardware resources of lower budget FPGAs. For the same process, FPGA logic density is about 40x lower than ASIC, and lower budget FPGAs use older processes. A h265 or AV1 decoder requires millions of logic gates (and DRAM memory bandwidth.) Only high-end FPGAs provide that.

There's mention that the decode could get a lot easier. Here's an H264 core that runs on older lattice chips and only takes 56k luts. https://www.latticesemi.com/products/designsoftwareandip/int... . Microchip's polarfires have a soft H.264 core as well taking under 20k. If AV2 will really be easier for hardware to implement, it might work out. Here's another example, H 264 decode in an artix 7, can do 1080p60 https:…

I think when they talk about AV2 being more hardware friendly they mean compared to AV1 not H.264.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no way an FPGA would make sense. The requirements for AV1 and H265 far exceed the hardware resources of lower budget FPGAs. For the same process, FPGA logic density is about 40x lower than ASIC, and lower budget FPGAs use older processes. A h265 or AV1 decoder requires millions of logic gates (and DRAM memory bandwidth.) Only high-end FPGAs provide that.

There's mention that the decode could get a lot easier. Here's an H264 core that runs on older lattice chips and only takes 56k luts. https://www.latticesemi.com/products/designsoftwareandip/int... . Microchip's polarfires have a soft H.264 core as well taking under 20k. If AV2 will really be easier for hardware to implement, it might work out. Here's another example, H 264 decode in an artix 7, can do 1080p60 https:…

I didn't mention h264 for a reason. It's a codec that was developed 25 years ago.

The complexity of video decoders has been going up exponentially and AV2 is no exception. Throwing more tools (and thus resources) at it is the only way to increase compression ratio.

Take AV1. It has CTBs that are 128x128 pixels. For intra prediction, you need to keep track of 256 neighboring pixels above the current CTB and 128 to the left. And you need to do this for YUV. For 420, that means you need to keep track of (256+128 + 2x(128+64)) = 768 pixels. At 8 bits per component, that's 8x768=6144 flip-flops. That's just for neighboring pixel tracking, which is only a tiny fraction of what you need to do, a few % of the total resources.

These neighbor tracking flip-flops are followed by a gigantic multiplexer, which is incredibly inefficient on FPGAs and it devours LUTs and routing resources.

A Lattice ECP5-85 has 85K LUTs. The FFs alone consume 8% of the FPGA. The multiplier probably another conservative 20%. You haven't even started to calculate anything and your FPGA is already almost 30% full.

FWIW, for h264, the equivalent of that 128x128 pixel CTB is 16x16 pixel MB. Instead of 768 neighboring pixels, you only need 16+32+2*(8+16)=96 pixels. See the difference? AV2 retains the 128x128 CTB size of AV1 and if it adds something like MRL of h.266, the number of neighbors will more than double.

H264 is child's play compared later codecs. It only has a handful of angular prediction modes, it has barely any pre-angular filtering, it has no chroma from luma prediction, it only has a weak deblocking filter and no loop filtering. It only has one DCT mode. The coding tree is trivial too. Its entropy decoder and syntax processing is low in complexity compared to later codecs. It doesn't have intra-block copy. Etc. etc.

Working on a hardware video decoder is my day job. I know exactly what I'm talking about, and, with all due respect, you clearly do not.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content delivery costs a lot for streaming services. After content is produced, this is basically the only remaining cost. It’s not surprising that they would go to extreme measures in reducing bitrate. That’s why, presumably, Netflix came up with the algorithm for removing camera grain and adding synthetically generated noise on the client[0], and why YouTube shorts were recently in the news for using extreme denois…

I recall Netflix saying that streaming cost was nothing compared to all other costs.

It probably is but the bean counters do not want to hear this, they want to cut everything to the point that it's just above the limit that consumers will accept before they throw in the towel and cancel their membership (ads, low quality compression, etc)

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#209
post #9

We must be reaching the limit at which video codecs can only achieve better quality by synthesizing details. That's already pretty prevalent in still images - phone cameras do it, and there are lots of AI resizing algorithms that do it. It doesn't look like AV2 does any of that yet though fortunately (except film grain synthesis but I think that's fine).

Please no. This is what jbig2 does for images and it’s a nightmare in my view, you can’t trust the result is not something totally different from the original [1]

[1]https://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013/0802_xerox-workcentres...

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