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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#201

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

peterpeppers wrote: post #137
jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

How do you live with yourself?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#202

Post by rurban »

DennisP wrote: post #121
tpoacher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd a…

Seems like a better lesson would be "don't be the Nazi." It's not like it's impossible. The Nazis arrested 800,000 Germans for active resistance activities, and several hundred thousand Germans deserted the military, many of those defecting to the Allies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism It wasn't a huge percentage, but we don't know how many actively resisted without getting caught, or resis…

The figure of German soldiers deaths has an estimation of 50% suicides.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#203

Post by eur0pa »

Rygian wrote: post #2

> If you take one lesson from this, it’s that you can always say no. I fully understand why this is true, but it seems to ignore any retaliative measures that the management could take against the person who says no. With the benefit of hindsight, any such retaliation would be weaker than ending up in an orange suit. But the person has to find the guts to say "no" without that hindsight.

You can absolutely, most definitely always say "no". Their carrot (money) comes and goes, and their stick (also money) is not enough to be concerning.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#204

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

thyristan wrote: post #39
amelius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.

It only works because doctors have a self-governing body of other doctors as an oversight, usually called a chamber, board, Kammer, etc. This chamber is responsible for licensing doctors to perform medicine and has the power to withdraw that license upon violations of the Hippocratic Oath, other ethical violations and other professional misconduct or malpractice. Unless you want this kind of arrangement for developer…

I absolutely want this arrangement for developers. We need to grow up as a profession, and take responsibility for the consequences of our actions.

This isn't the 90s anymore. Today there's practically nothing you can do in the modern world without interacting with software. Buying food, going to the hospital, travelling, communicating, voting, going to school, using anything electrical, anywhere. Our society is completely dependent on software at this point. The fact that there's no professional ethics code with the appropriate oversight for the development and maintenance of software is utterly insane.

The points you bring up about the Hippocratic Oath are important problems to solve, rather than reasons not to try.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#205

Post by teiferer »

jcz_nz wrote: post #115
jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently"

"ever again"

For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life without ongoing punishment. Beyond knowing what you did, and remembering the punishment, which for most people is already a burden heavy enough.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#206

Post by ajjahs »

ghssds wrote: post #123
testing22321 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

[dead]

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#207

Post by heisenbit »

rossdavidh wrote: post #131

Having worked as a programmer for twenty years, most of that as a contractor (hence a different employer about once a year), I have never been asked to do anything illegal. This isn't said to mean no one is, but rather that, if you are asked to do something illegal, it is weird. It isn't the normal, messed up capitalist system, it isn't typical bureaucratic nonsense, it isn't the imperfect state of the world we live…

Companies usually do not ask but powerful charismatic individuals close to the top do.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#208

Post by randycupertino »

peterpeppers wrote: post #137
jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

I worked at a health care tech company in Silicon Valley that actively defrauded medicare. When the medicare inspectors came the owner's daughters had a bunch of their friends from college (who didn't work there) sit at computers and pretend to be working, then they told the inspectors all these random people were registered nurses and full-time employees who were helping patients (and thus being billed for). It was a total sham.

I reported it and quit but they managed to stay in business and keep getting government contracts.

One of the disgruntled doctors from that company made a whole website about some of their fraud: https://hiller.whitecollarcrooks.com/

They also bragged to us about how one of their daughters was dating a Glassdoor exec and had him take down all their bad reviews.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#209

Post by globular-toast »

jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

> This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing

Too many people are trained to not rock the boat and not ask questions. I'm always "that guy" in pretty much every meeting I'm in. Some people like me, but many don't. It's tough. On the occasions that all my questions are already answered or I have nothing more to say it's obvious how relieved people are. It would be so easy to just be a yes man and please people all the time, but I just can't. It's easy to see how selecting for people who aren't like me would lead to an organisation that is essentially psychopathic.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#210

Post by em-bee »

albumen wrote: post #198
throwaway-0001 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, the numbers are very close to recent official figures. I looked them up to calculate the per capita rates. So USA is actually better than other countries? Kind of defeats these arguments here - interesting. (By the way I’m not from us) Based on the latest available data (mostly 2023) and current population estimates: * *UK:* ~56.0 per 10,000 people (1 in 178) * *Australia:* ~45.4 per 10,000 people (1 in…

Your last paragraph is doing a LOT of heavy lifting. TLDR: the US figures should be WAY higher if you expand the definition of homelessness like those other countries do. More research shows the U.S. rate looks lower largely because it uses a narrow, one-night "Point In Time" measure that excludes many precarious living situations other countries intentionally count. If you harmonise definitions, the U.S. does not ou…

also, despite being homeless people in germany can get financial support and healthcare, which was the original point about the fear of losing your job. and losing your job in germany does not make you homeless. you'd have to get evicted from your home (but not for failing to pay rent, as you would cover that with the financial support) so the group that is being talked about in the original paragraph that fears losing their job, and the group that is homeless in germany have nothing to do with each other, because the first group does not exist. most of tho homeless in germany never had a job to begin with.
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