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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#201
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only this had the F key row. Why is "fewer keys" the first decision that every fancy keyboard designer starts with :/

Because the fancy keyboards all support layers, and one key ergonomic principle is to avoid unnecessary finger travel ;) Default layers on the Dygma Raise 2: https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2

Modifier keys are the main thing that’s causing me RSI in the first place.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#202
post #200

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My parents sent me to years of piano lessons before I ever touched a computer keyboard, and my typing reflects it. I don't move my wrist. I move my entire hand. This drove my high school typing teacher nuts, but I was the fastest in class by a wide margin so he didn't push back too hard. I've tried traditional home-row typing but I just can't do it. And after all these years, my wrists still don't hurt at all. I can'…

Pianists are very (like 60%) susceptible to RSI, especially if they have small hands [1] (= lots of stretching motions). I think it's a tradeoff — moving your forearm around spares your wrists, but puts more strain on your elbows. I wouldn't be surprised if it's better overall, though, just because it involves a wider variety of movements. [1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12611474/ Anecdotally, I have large hands…

I have small hands. I found myself sitting next to a chaplain once, and he started conversation with "your hands are small. You'd never be able to play piano." I was playing Beethoven in recitals at 8, TYVM! I ended that chat pretty quickly.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

Unfortunately I was probably what most people would think is a model person in terms of activity. I used a standing desk or sitting with no backrest to maintain upright posture - I exercised all the time, did yoga with my wife, competed in powerlifting, did plenty of walking/cardio, rucking etc. I played guitar regularly and had since I was like 12 and had bouldering as a hobby so finger strength didn't seem to be an…

Hey I have cubital tunnel and also have an ulnar deviation in my left arm. Have you tried ergos with low profile keyboards? ZSA also makes a model called the Voyager, which is the best keyboard that I’ve ever had. Might be worth checking out. Like you with the Kinesis, the Voyager has been able to keep me in the game.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thumbs are one of your stronger fingers. In contrast the pinky is by far the weakest but we have dedicated it to almost every modifier and outlying key. I currently use an Elora from SplitKB so I can't speak to the Moonlanders thumb cluster, but if you find one you like it's a massive difference in how much usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing.

Thumbs can get overuse injuries: https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html I have used ergo keyboards with thumb clusters for several years now. After a while, even though switching to a split ergo keyboard alleviated wrist pains, I developed thumb discomfort. In the end I solved it by only frequently using the resting key of each thumb (space and backspace). And using the other thumb keys for infre…

The Elora I use follows the circular thumb cluster format so I have three keys per thumb that can be used with little movement the rest are for rarely used layer switches and such. One of those three is for often used layers.

I have homerow mods configured but still need to work on using them more. Unfortunately a lot of what's best for typing conflicts with what's best for gaming. Almost every example split layout puts space on the right half and I move it to the left. Still need shift and control on pinky holds. And the Elora has an exaggerated pinky stagger but swapped to WQSD makes an almost perfect diamond, but at the expense of the old Q now being A is below instead of above and Z is really far away.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#206

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

I have a Moonlander and I genuinely don’t understand why so many split keyboards do this. “Here’s a really nice split keyboard. But we’ve removed everything except the alphanumerics” Whhhyyyy. “Oh but it’s programmable. And you can have layers. And you can have macros” Cool. I actually didn’t want any of that. I just wanted a single row of function keys. My Moonlander can somehow make space for a “meh” key, a “caps w…

Onions have layers. Cakes have layers. Ogres have layers. I do not want layers on my keyboard.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#207
Steno is 100% the way to go to avoid and heal RSI. Infinitely more ergonomic. It also erases much of the difference between Emacs and VIM (assuming you use repeat and 1up). Yes, it has to be learned. But you already learned Emacs or VIM, so clearly you're not afraid to invest a little now for a big return later (e.g. no RSI). It's also fun.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#208
post #59
post #5

I love my moonlander so much, I bought a second one for work. Both were secondhand, so the sticker shock wasn't quite so bad. Though, I did end up spending some of that savings on custom, coiled cables. A coworker, after seeing my setup, also ended buying two. I agree with the author. It's a tool, and if your job requires a lot of computer use, it is worth it to invest in a tool that can not only help prevent RSI, bu…

I don’t have a moonlander but I did get one of their ergodox keyboards after noticing an increase in pain myself. I tried using it in querty and my experience was unless you type with proper hand position and finger movements (and possibly not even then) querty on an orthinear was even more painful than on a regular keyboard. I tried colemak for a while but something about the layout didn’t feel comfortable still. I…

QWERTY with "proper" hand placement isn't too bad, but I've been typing like this since I was 4 years old and have never tried another layout, so I might just be missing out. Still, it took me more than a year to really get used to the Ergodox... I shudder to think how long a new layout would take to get used to!

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#209
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These look great and I don’t doubt it’s worth the investment, but holy hell $500 is a tough price tag to accept.

I just got a corne split keyboard from China for a fraction of the cost. The guy who runs the webshop seemed like a legit enthusiast. $40

Are we talking about a keyboard kit or pre-built? 40$ seems quite cheap even for china.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#210
Long time MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 user. My search continues for an 80% split keyboard, where the important programming keys haven't been repositioned or worse, moved to a secondary layer (like braces/parenthesis, pipe/backslash, question mark/slash).

I do like the idea of thumb keys, but would probably need them as duplicates to the more traditional positions. I got a Keyboardio 100 which is absolutely beautiful, but 60% with layers for those above important keys just was too freaking hard.

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