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US cities pay too much for buses

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Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#201

Post by johnnyanmac »

citizenpaul wrote: post #170
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also don't know much about these so called purchasing contracts either. For example. do they contain sustainment services, maintenance equipment, storage facilities, or other sourcing requirements? When using federal funds, you're generally required to purchase all American products, I remember trying to furnish an office with just two desks and four chairs (nothing fancy), and the initial cost estimates were over…

All the contract stuff is too muddled to even consider debating online. I'd start with one HUGE obvious waste. Why don't the buses anywhere have some sort of uber style pickup. My point. I see countless buses running empty all the time through the day where I live outside of busy hours. It is so depressing to watch 3 empty busses pull up to an empty stop to not pick anyone up then do it again and again and again.. I…

>Someone is gonna come at me about the reliability scheduling of transport for underprividged. But they have never actually rode a bus route so they don't know that the buses are as reliably late as they are on time in 90% of cities. This change would likely improve scheduling for people that need it.

So your justification for not having reliably scheduling comes down to "well we never had reliable scheduling", and your solution is to make the schedule more chaotic?

Why do we just accept and the broken windows in order to try and make new buildings, instead of fixing the windows?

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#202

Post by RobKohr »

"Federal funding typically covers 80% of bus purchases, with agencies responsible for the remainder."

Well, there is your answer. The one making the purchase isn't the one primarily paying for the purchase. This makes them less sensitive to pricing.

Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance.

Or how you don't care how much you put on your plate or what you choose to eat at an all you can eat buffet.

The second you detach the consumer from the price of something, even through an intermediary such as health insurance, that is when they stop caring about how much something costs, and so the price jumps.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#203

Post by johnnyanmac »

stocksinsmocks wrote: post #189
dayvid wrote: post #88

Worth watching Modern MBA on the inefficiencies of transit in USA. Detailed analysis and comparison against Asian, European and Latin American systems along with private and government run operations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ3LSNXwZ2Y

I would also love to know the real reason why US manufacturing seems to be so much more costly than it is anywhere else, even after adjusting for wage differences.

It's not that drastic after wage differences, but bringing manufacturing costs down requires efficient, reliable supply lines. Nothing in the US has been that way for decades given the incentive structure of corporate America.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#204

Post by wolrah »

logifail wrote: post #161

Ever since I first looked at the Oshkosh NGDV for the USPS I couldn't help but wonder WHY there was a need for a custom vehicle?* European parcel delivery firms and postal systems (Deutsche Post DHL, La Poste, Royal Mail, PostNL and all the non-legacy competitors) generally do not commission purpose-built vehicles, they buy off the shelf small vans and light commercial vehicles. * of course I do know why, "because jo…

How common are individual streetside mailboxes elsewhere in the world. That's really the only thing where I could see a real need for specialized vehicles for, otherwise for neighborhoods that have on-foot delivery or centralized boxes I totally agree any ordinary delivery van should be just as good for USPS as it is for UPS, FedEx, Amazon, etc.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#205

Post by klooney »

stocksinsmocks wrote: post #189
dayvid wrote: post #88

Worth watching Modern MBA on the inefficiencies of transit in USA. Detailed analysis and comparison against Asian, European and Latin American systems along with private and government run operations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ3LSNXwZ2Y

I would also love to know the real reason why US manufacturing seems to be so much more costly than it is anywhere else, even after adjusting for wage differences.

The purchasers for buses, trainsets, etc., are bad- lots of unnecessary customization, last minute changes, low volume, etc. This drives down efficiency across the system.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#206

Post by cenamus »

SpicyUme wrote: post #175
ecshafer wrote: post #133

I think that the authors solution, outsourcing production is not quite right, they gloss over other issues. >In a large country like the US, some variation in bus design is inevitable due to differences in conditions like weather and topography. But Silverberg said that many customizations are cosmetic, reflecting agency preferences or color schemes but not affecting vehicle performance. This is kind of absurd, I hav…

But a bus isn't just a bus, there are differences in what is needed in different cities. Some need heat, some need AC, some need both. In Utah there are buses that go up the canyons and they have gearboxes focused on climbing steep hills, while a bus in the valley might never need that ratio and can be optimized for efficiency on the flats. Seattle has buses with electric trolley lines above, and buses that were desi…

But they all basically come with AC and heating? At least in basically any semi-modern bus I've ever been in in Europe. No matter if it's -20 or +35 celsius, as long as they turn the AC actually on it's tolerable.

And we also have some mountains here, so there's some buses for that (still stock from the factory)

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#207

Post by cyberax »

bluGill wrote: post #183
rootusrootus wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I remember once doing the math, and it takes a relatively high level of ridership before a bus (or train) reaches the per-passenger efficiency of something like a Civic Hybrid carrying three passengers. We have a number of routes in my local area that I think could be more quickly and economically served by replacing the full size bus with something much smaller.

general rule of thumb is 5 passangers for a but to break even. Now a civic is a smaller car so it will be better, and you specified 3 passanges whes single occupant is by far more likely - even with those unrealistic assumption a typical bus will do well overall.

> general rule of thumb is 5 passangers for a but to break even.

"Break even" how? A bus has a road footprint of about 15 cars (it's more than the physical bus length because it also occupies the road during stops and is less maneuverable).

15 cars have the occupancy of about 25 people.

> even with those unrealistic assumption a typical bus will do well overall.

Nope. Buses absolutely fail in efficiency. They pollute WAY more than cars, and they have fundamental limitations like the frequency.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#208

Post by wolrah »

pkaye wrote: post #200
logifail wrote: post #161

Ever since I first looked at the Oshkosh NGDV for the USPS I couldn't help but wonder WHY there was a need for a custom vehicle?* European parcel delivery firms and postal systems (Deutsche Post DHL, La Poste, Royal Mail, PostNL and all the non-legacy competitors) generally do not commission purpose-built vehicles, they buy off the shelf small vans and light commercial vehicles. * of course I do know why, "because jo…

The USPS is an US federal agency. At one time it even had a cabinet level position though not so any more. Its not private like in most countries. At the scale they buy these vehicles, it probably makes sense to get a custom one. Even Amazon has custom EVs built for them.

> Even Amazon has custom EVs built for them.

Eh, sort of. Amazon partnered with Rivian to help design the EDV and had an initial exclusivity agreement as long as they ordered a certain number of them, but this agreement has since been terminated so anyone can buy them now. The USPS actually tested one in early 2024.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#209

Post by numpad0 »

myrmidon wrote: post #195
paddy_m wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

citation needed.

Here you go: https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/financial_analys... My takeaway: No reasonable assumption exists that would make operating battery electric busses more expensive than diesel ones.

  > On the other hand, he told us that without subsidies, the life cycle costs would be "diesel buses, followed by hybrids, and then with a huge difference, EV buses and then fuel cell buses." He asserts that, as things stand, "neither EV buses nor fuel cell buses would be profitable in terms of life cycle costs without subsidies."

  > Tai said, "Relying on subsidies to introduce EV buses and fuel cell buses cannot be considered a healthy business situation," and added, "I strongly hope that technological innovation and price competition will progress throughout the zero-emission bus market."
"EV too cheap to meter ICE dead" is just hype. The realoty is it's not much more than another subsidy milking, yet. Cleaner air in the city is nice, though.

1: https://trafficnews-jp.translate.goog/post/587367/3

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#210

Post by bombcar »

Symbiote wrote: post #172
bombcar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesel’s last remaining benefits are of no value for a bus (locomotive-class horsepower possibilities and rapid refueling) as a bus never weighs much and goes in a circle.

I think existing electric locomotives are more powerful than existing diesel locomotives. The "most powerful diesel–electric locomotive model ever built on a single frame", the EMD DDA40X, provides 5MW. The EURO9000, "currently the most powerful locomotive on the European market" provides 9MW under electric power. USA-made locomotives are so far down the list on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_powerful_loc…

That electric locomotive has a really long cord attached to it - it only has about 2MW under diesel.

Once you allow attaching an extension cord, electric wins ever time; there's zero competition.

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