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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#201

Post by baalimago »

aduwah wrote: post #178
baalimago wrote: post #166

So what if I host my own messaging service? As in: bring back IRC?

The way I understand if your solution would become popular, the law can come after you to provide a log of messages in plain text. Also they will have the legal power to force the popular operating systems to enforce generic keylogging/packet capturing and whatnot.

I don't see how they can come after anyone who's using a specific protocol [0] by law. Expanding on this thought: if Chat Control passes, it will just be the death of social media as a chat platform. People will swap to something more rudimentary where it can't be enforced. Primary reason why being that it simply will be so much faster/more convenient than the apps which are forced to use chat control.

The same reason as why streaming services are being ditched in favor of piracy will happen to social media.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#202

Post by gjsman-1000 »

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

> Best case scenario (and this is wildly optimistic) the offenders won't be able to find any 'safe' channels to distribute their materials to each other.

The theory is based on the documented fact that most crime is poorly thought through with terrible operational security. 41% is straight up opportunistic, spur of the moment, zero planning.

It won't stop technologically savvy predators who plan things carefully; but that statistically is probably only a few percent of predators; so yes, it's probably pretty darn effective. There are no shortage of laws that are less effective that you probably don't want repealed - like how 40% of murderers and 75% of rapists get away with it. Sleep well tonight.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#203

Post by InvisGhost »

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

They better ban password protected zip files too!

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#204

Post by nilslindemann »

haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

By implementing direct democracy via internet, which creates laws which disallow that.

But, amongst a few others, there is a technical problem, how do we log in to vote? That mechanism must be unhackable, configurable by computer illiterates, and it must not invade privacy.

Serious question.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#205

Post by ux266478 »

smcin wrote: post #153
frumplestlatz wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I find most interesting about your reply is how it demonstrates that we live in wildly subjective realities.

Specifically, how? GP's claims can be factually substantiated. Pick whichever you claim can't.

He isn't calling the claim subjective, but underlining what the claim posits entails that we live in subjective realities.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#207

Post by 1718627440 »

spockz wrote: post #190
reliabilityguy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes but unfortunately courts are mostly reactive, not proactive I think it’s always the case, no? Unless the unconstitutional law is approved, there is nothing to dispute in court.

In the Netherlands we have the “Eerste kamer” (first chamber, also called Senate) that is responsible for verifying that the proposed laws are in accordance with our “constitution”. They are elected of band with the normal government which should ensure that no single party is able to steamroll laws through both chambers.

In theory the "Bundespräsident" in Germany is supposed to only ratify laws that are in accordance with the constitution, but I don't think it happens that he refuses to do this.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#208

Post by dent9876543 »

nikkwong wrote: post #151

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

But China wasn't a honeypot for crime and fraud before they had the firewall, facial rec, and so on.

It is true that many Chinese citizens don't give it a thought.

But there's no demonstrable cause and effect going on there.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#209

Post by kmeisthax »

ben_w wrote: post #147
tomkarho wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way I see to prevent the constant pushing is that every single time some council or committee presents something like this every single of one of their private communication gets leaked for everyone to peruse at their leisure from whatsapp to bank statements. They want to erode people's privacy? Let them walk their talk first and see how that goes.

Tempting though that is, I think that's the wrong way to resolve it: The people proposing it (law people) are a different culture than us (computer people), and likely have a funamental misunderstanding about the necessary consequences of what they're asking for. Two cultures: https://benwheatley.github.io/blog/2024/05/25-12.04.31.html

Let's stop infantilizing our adversary. Law enforcement knows exactly what they're doing. If they didn't know that this law would compromise security, they wouldn't have gotten carve-outs for their own communications.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#210

Post by hellojesus »

happyopossum wrote: post #120
meta-level wrote: post #96

Can anyone explain to me what keeps anyone who doesn't want to be monitored from just sending PNGs (or similar) containing messages encrypted in each pixels LSBs? Doesn't all that just force everyone who has something to hide to use something else, less obvious?

Presumably the distribution of an app that facilitates that would become illegal as well.

But would that actually stop people? I can say with certainty a law such as this would encourage me to go out of my way to create and distribute such software.
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