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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#201

Post by rv3392 »

stratosmacker wrote: post #123
joshstrange wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s possible for x86 machines to manage this state correctly, as proven by Valve’s Steam Deck which can be put to sleep and drain its battery slowly enough to stay alive for a week or more. I had the original Steam Deck and the OLED Steam Deck and neither of them would hold a charge past a day or so. It's a constant annoyance for me as I don't want to leave it plugged in 24/7 but if I don't, it won't be ready to g…

Hey fyi and for posterity, on SteamDeck I have the same issue and the cause is the same as outlined above (modern standby). I would love to hear more from folks who don't have this out of the box. The fix is simple but I have to wonder why it's not set by default https://github.com/nazar256/publications/blob/main/guides/st... Ideally the Steamdeck would come with hibernation after timeout and FDE enabled by default,…

Interesting to see this is so variable.

I got a Steam Deck OLED a few months ago. I haven't changed the standby behaviour at all. I can get a bit less than a week of standby + a few hours of gaming out of the box. Currently, my deck is on 52% charge after last charging it 4 days ago and playing ~3 hours of Silksong across those days.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#202

Post by AuthAuth »

jadenPete wrote: post #175

I really, really want an ARM laptop with great Linux support. It's very difficult to justify buying an non-M series laptop today, when the M series laptops outperform x86 laptops in battery life by such a wide margin. I'm sure some of that is because Apple controls their entire hardware and software stack and can optimize macOS for battery life, but it's hard not to believe that the processor architecture (i.e. x86)…

The M Series doesn't get battery life rep due to it being arm its purely due to Apple optimizing for battery life and partly marketing it a ton. You can get x86 chips that can do 24HR playing a video which is 5 hours more than the M2/M3 laptops and keep in mind thats running bloated ass windows which probably uses 2-3x the system resources of macOS. I'm pretty sure the snapdragon chips out preform Apple silicon at almost every metric.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#203

Post by fidotron »

This isn't just a question of direct power management features or use of custom silicon, but there has been curious noise for years out of Apple over a major cause: memory management.

In modern systems memory becomes a major source of power consumption, so reducing how much if it you need to keep active results in big gains, on top of all the other benefits of doing this. This is partly used as the reasoning to explain why Swift has evolved in the direction it has, but also various apps that suspend/resume their state at a higher level than simply relying on the OS to do it.

It would take a gargantuan effort, which would likely annoy almost everyone, to get a desktop Linux distro to do this.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#204

Post by astrange »

trueismywork wrote: post #116
didacusc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

I just got a work Mac and I have spent around 20 years now on linux before it. I was making a list compared to KDE (not pros/cons just differences) It is still a work in progress since its only a couple of days since im using it. 1. No delete button. I know you can do Fn delete but It is more problematic. And I do use delete often. 2. System keeps important system stuff in Library directory in home. Do not do remove…

> 19. Ramdisk on mac os x

It has ramdisks (`diskimagetool attach ram://`) and tmpfs.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#205

Post by cosmic_cheese »

throwaway240403 wrote: post #174
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more subjective of a thing than many would like to admit. As someone who’s been working as a dev for a decade and writing code outside of work for twice that, one of the things keeping me away from Linux is that there simply isn’t a true Mac analogue DE.

It's funny how polarizing this is. Seemingly based on whatever system you grew up on, or are most accustomed to. I find Mac's window management to be something of a joke, and can't imagine why anyone would want to replicate it. I do see the value of the global menu but everything else feels wholly unintuitive to me. I can't stand that cmd+tab takes you to the last app, not the last window, and raises all that apps ot…

The way Mac window management works, ironically, is that you manage windows as little as possible. You don't even go as far as to maximize or tile most of them. Instead, windows are sized to fit their content and sit where they may, overlapping each other and allowing the most relevant portions of each to peek through, like the digital analogue of a desk with a pile of odd-sized papers. Windows are foregrounded by either clicking a bit that's peeking out or triggering Exposé and choosing a thumbnail.

It's a very different mindset than that of a Windows-like desktop or tiling window manager.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#206

Post by heavyset_go »

maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

If the swap file is encrypted and memory encryption is turned on, I don't see why lockdown shouldn't be allowed.

You're already relying on the hardware platform for Secure Boot, it's not far fetched to apply the same view to hibernate if the platform protects memory and disk.

That said, S3 is still a viable option, and IMO, the best option. Some hardware vendors still implement S3 sleep for their Linux laptops.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#207

Post by heavyset_go »

fpoling wrote: post #167
beeflet wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have secure boot, hibernation, and full disk encryption working fine on linux, but I have never heard of kernel lockdown. The solution I found involves making a custom initramfs to support hibernation and compiling the kernel into a signed EFI stub.

Does the system use a boot loader? Or does it boot directly into kernel bypassing bootloaders?

You can do both.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#208

Post by AuthAuth »

didacusc wrote: post #22
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

MacOS is just missing way to many core features. It feels more like a demo than actual software to be used day to day for a variety of computing work. I know the technical under the hood are all solid but the software the user interacts with is bad, all the default apps are barebones with bad defaults and no settings to fix it. My final point is: finder.

When I put non techy people on mac they end up having a good experience because they learn quickly there is no reason to touch anything except the web browser. I also want to highlight Macs are high end hardware in a premium package compared to Linux where people usually try it on a really old low/mid range device.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#209

Post by leakycap »

echelon wrote: post #194
zer00eyz wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this low contrast blobby window thing makes its way to the laptop I’ll be very, very not impressed. You have quite a bit of control over all of these features. Dark mode, contrast controls... There is a lot there you can tweak to have it look how you want and it stays that way through pretty much all upgrades. > animations, stage managers and pretty docks. You can turn all this off for the most part. Spend as mu…

Finder can't be replaced. Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. There's no location bar. You can't have a dynamically resizing grid of icons, so if you resize your windows, the icons are constantly outside of the horizontal scroll blinds. The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files. Major system paths (eg. Applications) are locked down and hidden. The window manager can't be replaced. Wi…

> There's no location bar.

Option 1: View > Show Location Bar (you can right-click or double-click on any folder to interact) Option 2: Option-click the folder name in the Finder Window's title bar to immediately jump to other folders Option 3: If you want to type a location and go there, press Command-Shift-G for Go > Go to Location

> You can't have a dynamically resizing grid of icons, so if you resize your windows, the icons are constantly outside of the horizontal scroll blinds.

Of course you can. Select View > Clean Up By > and choose the option you like best.

> The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files.

Name a built-in file explorer with semi-spatial (Sidebar off), browser icon mode, hierarchical list mode, gallery, and column view. Bonus points if they have anything remotely like QuickLook.

> The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files.

What is difficult about Command-1, Command-2, Command-3, Command-4 to switch views? What is hard about Command-J for granular settings?

> Major system paths (eg. Applications) are locked down and hidden.

Applications is visible at the system-wide and user level. Applications folder is listed in the "Go" menu, present in every Finder menubar. Applications is, by default, on the left sidebar of every Finder window. If you want to type, Command-Space brings up any Application at a whim.

Can't find an Application or want to see EVERY app on the system and connected drives? Hold Option while going to Apple > System Information and click the "Applications" listing on the left sidebar.

> Window manager placement hacks exist, but they are not first class.

Moom wants a chat. BetterTouchTool wonders if you've heard of it. Heck, DockDoor is free and excellent, too! They're only second-class in the sense they won't bring down your system when they act up.

> You can't change how to cycle and alternate windows. Exposé is flakey...

This is either a configuration error or not being familiar with how to use it. Exposé works better than any similar system on any other platform I've tried - what do you think is a better example of a systemwide Exposé alternative on another platform? Wait, I don't need one because Mission Control & Exposé are bulletproof.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#210

Post by zer00eyz »

echelon wrote: post #194
zer00eyz wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this low contrast blobby window thing makes its way to the laptop I’ll be very, very not impressed. You have quite a bit of control over all of these features. Dark mode, contrast controls... There is a lot there you can tweak to have it look how you want and it stays that way through pretty much all upgrades. > animations, stage managers and pretty docks. You can turn all this off for the most part. Spend as mu…

Finder can't be replaced. Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS. There's no location bar. You can't have a dynamically resizing grid of icons, so if you resize your windows, the icons are constantly outside of the horizontal scroll blinds. The view modalities make it difficult to sort and find files. Major system paths (eg. Applications) are locked down and hidden. The window manager can't be replaced. Wi…

> Finder the least flexible file explorer of any OS.

Tell me how you getting around your system on linux?

Search is and remains a first class citizen on Mac, and is for the most part on Linux. Spotlight still edges out linux choices. Windows has all the "power tools" to root through folders cause its search is such hot garbage.

> You'll never have first class tiling windows in Mac.

No you have ones that work.

Because the moment that you plug in mismatched or non standard monitors into a modern linux distro all bets are off. To make that work your going to end up with some pretty intense setup where your forced into window management rather than a traditional desktop.

Can you do it... You sure can... But I run an out of the box IDE on a basic Mac with a few tweaks for a reason: because playing games with my tools isnt getting work done. I have an arch, ubuntu and windows desktop and I have a Mac laptop. Is the linux box fun. It sure is. Does running it involve doing a lot of chores, you bet it does.

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