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Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

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Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#201

Post by patanegra »

lwhi wrote: post #66
patanegra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extremely unfair framing. Oxford University has been discriminating people from independent schools for a while now. To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. That's not "letting in poor people" as you framed it. It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Lots of that is mainly based on classism (against people from middle class), racism (against white people).…

What an appalling point of view. Growing up without privilege is (obviously) markedly more difficult than being provided with the best education money can buy throughout childhood. The students aren't necessarily worse; but they will be unaccustomed to the codified approach that other students from independent schools understand. The system has been built to serve the privileged. While you might feel blame can fairly…

It might come over as appalling, given the whole culture has shifted towards: "Nobody is dumber! Every child deserves a medal."

Which isn't true, and never was. I get why we do that with kids in Reception and Year 1. With young adults, like University students, the fact of inequality of potentials of individuals, is just a fact anyone has to live with.

I am clever, but I am a fat, average looking guy. So that's what I have to live with. David Beckham is not so smart, but he is sporty and looks great. He uses his innate talents, and I use mines. Nobody is discriminated by being different.

The system has been built by those with means. And those with means more often than not are clever, hard-working people. That's how you get successful in the first place. And when you are born with great talents, you will go up too. That was the point of aristocrats being replaced by bourgeois, and now people in tech growing no matter where they are from.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#202

Post by quietbritishjim »

exe34 wrote: post #147
rm445 wrote: post #124

I am a Durham graduate, still somewhat involved with the university via some voluntary roles, and a bit of a 'booster' in the sense that I'll sing its praises to anyone. I also have a postgrad degree from Cambridge and did a little teaching while there. So, I'm quite familiar, and while I'm happy to see Durham get some love, this is bunk. There is a gulf in undergraduate teaching between Oxbridge and the pack. The su…

> The supervision system guarantees all Oxbridge students weekly, small-group tutorials, We had that in Physics at Manchester in the 2000s. 4 students. I'm guessing they got the idea from Oxbridge, but I don't think it's been a USP for a very long time.

That sounds like a similar idea but I doubt it's to the same extent.

When I was at Cambridge in the early noughties, supervisions for maths and computer science (and physics I believe but I didn't go to any of those) were 2 students in 4 1-hour sessions per week (1 per 24 hour lecture course). [Edit: hmm, actually maybe it was just 2 per week.] In maths, if there were an odd number of students then one would get 1 to 1 supervisions, but I'm sure that depends on the college. For computer science, I was put in a 3 person supervision when they had an odd number (and I wasn't happy about it at the time!)

I later did teaching at UCL and Imperial and the difference was huge. When they get to it, I would advise my children to go Oxford or Cambridge in a heartbeat. (For reference, my parents were too poor to even consider university.)

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#203

Post by mensetmanusman »

afavour wrote: post #14
TMWNN wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. Or ABB for the incoming president of the Oxford Union, the one who cheered Charlie Kirk's murder a few months after debating him in person. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2025/09/oxfo... >

It would be wonderful if we could, just once, have a conversation about something happening outside the US without bringing in US culture war talking points.

The current president of a verbal debate club representing Oxford cheering political violence against someone he just debated is actually quite relevant.

The society leaders decided it’s okay for him to do that because of racism based on their most recent response.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#204

Post by mensetmanusman »

afavour wrote: post #162
cvwright wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are the grades of a student in a prestigious position at Oxford not relevant to the academic reputation of Oxford?

My objection was not the student in question being mentioned. It was why he was mentioned: his views on Charlie Kirk, a US culture war topic that has nothing to do with the discussion and nothing to do with the student’s admission grades.

Oxfords name is currently being trashed globally because of this though. It sucks, but it must be dealt with. Celebrating violence against free speech doesn’t make sense for Oxford’s name to stand behind.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#206

Post by fatfox »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #185
fatfox wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I’d agree with that. International student income dropped, rounds of layoffs. Some universities are better at optimising for rankings, see also REF research funding and how much effort and resources are spent on it, which varies by university: https://2029.ref.ac.uk/about/what-is-the-ref/

How did international student income drop with Brexit, when the UK now have 4-600k student visas granted in each of the last few years vs 2-300k pre-Brexit?

I’m not sure where you’ve got the stats from, but student visas granted dropped since 2022, acc to UK gov (-5% in 2023, -14% in 2024).[0]

Combined with universities' increasing reliance on international student income (over the last years) and issues accessing research funding, this can get universities into trouble.

[0] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#207

Post by patanegra »

growse wrote: post #37
patanegra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extremely unfair framing. Oxford University has been discriminating people from independent schools for a while now. To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. That's not "letting in poor people" as you framed it. It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Lots of that is mainly based on classism (against people from middle class), racism (against white people).…

> It's letting in dumber people, worse students It's a very bold assertion that A level grades are the ultimate arbiter of "dumbness".

When you compare 1:83 vs 1:2600, it is so big difference, it deserves bold statements.

In the UK, there's 1.5 million kids playing footbal. 1:83 ~18000 kids play in any professional club. 1:2600 ~580 kids get to play in Premier League, EFL Championship in a season

What is Oxford doing is letting kids who play in absolutely any club, if they go to state school, or only those who got to Premier League, if they go to independent school.

Again, it's discrimination so bad it should be illegal.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#208

Post by rcxdude »

nicce wrote: post #63
foven wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kids at private schools are specifically primed for every part of the application process, including the interview and interview questions in a way that state schools simply cannot. It does not matter how smart you are if your competition is able to practice in a way you cannot.

Why the process is not fixed from that part? Redesign in a way that private schools will not get any benefit from the process itself.

How exactly? the way it's managed at the moment is that the admissions tutors keep an eye on what different schools are doing in terms of prepping their students and keep that in mind when assessing them. Which is exactly what causes the 'bias'. I am significantly more impressed by someone who manages to get good grades with little help than someone who manages to get excellent grades with the most effective teaching of the test that money can buy (having gone to an independent school, I was one of those being 'discriminated' against, but I can well understand that many of my classmates, who primarily good at cramming for the exam and not understanding the material, got very good grades but would not do nearly as well at university. Heck, I got in and struggled way more than I had done before, and more so than many in my year who had worse grades in less good schools)

(I would, in general, be in favor of fixing GCSEs and A-levels. They have persistently moved in a direction that rewards memorisation of particular keywords, something which especially rewards teaching the test, as well as getting easier and especially less good at discriminating the top end of ability accurately. But it's still not going to be enough to remove this difference)

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#209

Post by concernedParty »

asib wrote: post #86
patanegra wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always the same argument. If you are world-class talent (someone who gets to Oxford), you should be capable of similar results as kids from independent schools. Like Joe Seddon did ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Seddon - growing up with a single parent mom, working as a therapist in NHS). It isn't fair to ask ones to have 4A* and others to have just 3As. Only 1 in 2600 gets 4 A . And 1 in 83 gets 3 As. Maki…

If it's so much easier to get into Oxbridge from a state school, why do you think people with the means send their kids to private school? They'd save so much money not doing so.

There is a growing number of parents who, because of this exact overt and known discrimination against applicants from private schools, will first send their kids to elite private primary schools and then they switch them to the best secondary state schools they can find, using the money to supplement their education with private one-to-one tutors.

This is an entirely expected outcome. Water will find a way to ground.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#210

Post by mensetmanusman »

ralusek wrote: post #47
afavour wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be wonderful if we could, just once, have a conversation about something happening outside the US without bringing in US culture war talking points.

> incoming president of Oxford Union > debated Kirk [at Oxford] > cheered assassination of Kirk, which happened within months of debate Is this really dragging American culture war into things? This is clearly relevant to Oxford

Anyone logical knows it’s relevant, but people putting their head in the sand about the most significant political assassination in over 50 years isn’t a surprise.
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