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GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

discuss.grapheneos.org

201–208 of 208 posts

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#201
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not wrong from a computer freedom perspective. GrapheneOS is actively hostile to things like complete root access. It blows a hole in the security model. It's also very much enabled by the exact same sort of user hostile cryptography that corporations use to lock down their devices. Things like hardware attestation which protects apps from us. We can't easily do things like MITM an app to reverse engineer it. I…

GrapheneOS only supports devices where users can have full control over the OS and replace it. Choosing to use GrapheneOS is fully optional and people who don't want a strong security model can use something else. Not clear how GrapheneOS in any way hurts people's freedom by giving them a highly private and secure OS option for devices which meet our requirements. We're working with an OEM on towards more devices mee…

> Not clear how GrapheneOS in any way hurts people's freedom

It's not GrapheneOS itself that's doing this. It's technology like hardware attestation. Stock Android is rapidly becoming just as bad as iOS in this regard.

Remote attestation is a technology that enables discrimination against us. By using it, corporations can tell we've "tampered with" our own phones by doing things such as installing GrapheneOS. That's simply not a power I want them to ever have. They should be none the wiser.

The problem is they will abuse that power to deny service to anyone who isn't using a phone owned by corporations. GrapheneOS itself will probably be among the casualties. Bank apps work on it for now but there's no guarantee at all that they'll keep working in the future. Banks can just flip a switch and the apps simply stop working. No valid attestation that a corporation such as Samsung owns your phone? No service. Discrimination.

For corporations, device security means their app is secure from us. They should never be safe from us. That is my ideological point. We should be able to do anything we want, and they should be able to do nothing we don't allow.

I understand that you're doing your best to use this cryptography to protect us. I really respect the work that's being put into GrapheneOS. In fact I'd be using it right now if I could get my hands on a Pixel.

I'm just saying this hardware attestation technology enables discrimination against us.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#202

I really love Graphene OS but I _wish_ there was a version in which you could get a root shell and extract private data of apps you install when verified as the user. The developers are on record as saying that root blows a hole in their security model (it does!) but if there was _some_ way of doing it safely, so I can modify applications I as the user wish to, it would be my ideal OS. I know I could download and sel…

What is the threat model when enabling root on a phone and why can't it be mitigated? Root is enabled on most servers and desktops and we are surviving fine.

Threat model is that you can "spy" on what your applications are doing, or do things undesirable to application owners (like making screenshots).

This is desirable to end users, but my understanding is that making your os rootable will make applications like bank apps blacklist your os, and make it more or less unusable for a normal user.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#203
post #200
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm afraid that that only goes to prove errors in your intuition and critical thinking skills. Your facts are incorrect and your logic uses an appeal to (lack of) authority fallacy.

The ten minutes I watched was one big appeal to authority. "Here's Doctor X, a highly respected scientist. Look at all the big name universities he's linked to. Listen to him waffle on about how he thinks climate science is corrupt." Appeal to authority is a dubious fallacy to invoke in the first place. If I need to assume something about (let's say) geology - which I know little about and haven't the time to researc…

> The ten minutes I watched was one big appeal to authority. "Here's Doctor X, a highly respected scientist. Look at all the big name universities he's linked to.

Fair point. Although two wrongs don't make a right.

> If I need to assume something about (let's say) geology - which I know little about and haven't the time to research myself - I'm going to trust the general consensus of professional geologists.

This is the intelligent, inituitive approach - I agree. However one of the main points that the documentary makes is that there's a hidden corruption involved which means that in the case of climate this is actually the wrong approach to take. The combined state and money printer-backed financial system has an enormous incentive to encourage scientists to find a global climate crisis, and because most scientists rely on government funding, they in turn have enormous incentives to produce statistics that align with this, or else lose their funding. The so-called climate experts that are presented to you are in fact selected by this system because they produce work that aligns with the system's incentive to make people believe there is a climate crisis.

This corruption all stems from the fact that we gave a few questionable people a money printer, and decades later they're getting closer and closer in their ultimate goal of enslaving the world.

https://x.com/OppCostApp/status/1952831340597948565 (only a two minute video this time)

Read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" or "Broken Money" by Alden for the full story.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#204
post #203
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ten minutes I watched was one big appeal to authority. "Here's Doctor X, a highly respected scientist. Look at all the big name universities he's linked to. Listen to him waffle on about how he thinks climate science is corrupt." Appeal to authority is a dubious fallacy to invoke in the first place. If I need to assume something about (let's say) geology - which I know little about and haven't the time to researc…

> The ten minutes I watched was one big appeal to authority. "Here's Doctor X, a highly respected scientist. Look at all the big name universities he's linked to. Fair point. Although two wrongs don't make a right. > If I need to assume something about (let's say) geology - which I know little about and haven't the time to research myself - I'm going to trust the general consensus of professional geologists. This is…

This might be a compelling take except that many climate deniers/skeptics - including several featuring in that movie - are funded by fossil fuel companies and right-wing think tanks.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#205
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, you can tax more up to a point, but eventually that tap runs dry and you're forced to reallocate existing resources. Since the 1980s, we have been consistently taxing less. If the tap is dry, it isn't because of over-taxation - it's because there's a reservoir of wealth hoarded by the relatively few. A even cursory glance at the trajectory of wealth distribution will make that clear.

sure, but does government prevent wealth inequality, or maybe the very cause of it? (research hint: inflation, and that millennia old quote/insight: the more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government...)

> sure, but does government prevent wealth inequality, or maybe the very cause of it?

Neither. Government is just the system through which policy that either greatness or lessens inequality is implemented. For example, government can decrease an inheritance tax, therefore increasing inequality, or they can do the opposite to reverse it.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#206
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, anyone with actual root on a secure (locked, verified boot on) Android phone can hard brick it with a single command. Yes, you can yell at the user telling them it's their fault. Still something you usually do not want to support. I don't think having authorized temporary root is inherently insecure, but on the other hand making sure it is secure could be a huge time sink. Now, the original request here, modify…

Oh, I agree that the initial request is more than reasonable. Titanium Backup is something i miss every day. Especially since Seedvault is.... ekhm, lacking.

Seedvault is the /worst/. I ranted about it here a few months ago, and the lead dev says he's aware they really need something better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42541520

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#207
post #204
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ten minutes I watched was one big appeal to authority. "Here's Doctor X, a highly respected scientist. Look at all the big name universities he's linked to. Fair point. Although two wrongs don't make a right. > If I need to assume something about (let's say) geology - which I know little about and haven't the time to research myself - I'm going to trust the general consensus of professional geologists. This is…

This might be a compelling take except that many climate deniers/skeptics - including several featuring in that movie - are funded by fossil fuel companies and right-wing think tanks.

Define "right-wing".

Ultimately either the evidence is correct or it's not, no matter how it's funded. This documentary demonstrates how much of the current mainstream evidence is in fact incorrect, explains why it's incorrect (both the errors and the incentives involved) and then provides evidence for why the small degree of measured warming over the last decades is both happening perfectly naturally and is not very significant compared to periods in the history of mankind.

You must at least admit that much of the evidence backing the climate "crisis" we have been fed over the last decades was actually just projections from models. Models that have generally been proven to be completely wrong. If you take a look for real evidence of detrimental effects from any change in the climate, it's simply not there.

Re: GrapheneOS and forensic extraction of data (2024)

#208
post #207
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be a compelling take except that many climate deniers/skeptics - including several featuring in that movie - are funded by fossil fuel companies and right-wing think tanks.

Define "right-wing". Ultimately either the evidence is correct or it's not, no matter how it's funded. This documentary demonstrates how much of the current mainstream evidence is in fact incorrect, explains why it's incorrect (both the errors and the incentives involved) and then provides evidence for why the small degree of measured warming over the last decades is both happening perfectly naturally and is not very…

In which case I'd appreciate seeing something in text form, since the first ten minutes is uncompelling and does not demonstrate what you say it does, and I'm not inclined to spend much time verifying my suspicions. Another commenter has linked to a review (here [0]) which demonstrates that graphs have been used in a totally misleading way in the film. Indeed this is exactly the sort of thing that makes 1hr+ films a big red flag for me.

[0] https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/fake-graphs-and...

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