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Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

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Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#201

Post by mathiaspoint »

LightBug1 wrote: post #86

The real problem with this is ... who cares? Prior experience teachers that those losing faith in this way or are impacted by inequality won't, on the whole, come for the those who put them in that situation. They'll come for the brown people next door. Because obviously it's their fault. And whether it comes from their own, internal, faulty logic. Or through the whisperings of Fox News. It won't matter. Rinse. Repea…

Because that faith is what got people to accept "the brown people living next door." The idea that we could get along and just work harder is what let people give up tribalism. If that no longer works tribalism must come back.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#202

Post by nonethewiser »

coliveira wrote: post #186
nonethewiser wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If success were ONLY about having capital then what would that imply? The super rich people of today would come from the super rich people of their parent's generation. This model is actually incredibly bad at predicting the richest people in the US today. Gates, Musk, Buffet, Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc. Many may have come from well off families but none of them were anything close to among the richest of their generatio…

People like Gates, Musk, Buffet are only a side show. They are there because of support from Wall Street. They're new but at the same time indistinct from old money and working for the same goals. Moreover, a "self-made billionaire" is just a drop on the global pool of wealth. It is even good for capitalism to have these new people as a showcase, so billions will believe they can be the next, when winning the lottery…

OK so its not only about luck and existing capital.

>Moreover, a "self-made billionaire" is just a drop on the global pool of wealth.

We are not talking about the global pool of wealth - we are talking about capitalism which is decidedly smaller. You can take out Putin, Saudi Aramco, etc.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#203

Post by _DeadFred_ »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #180
Buttons840 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

This is simply incorrect. To make the tax incidence on wages and capital gains equivalent, you must first deduct losses due to inflation and risk. For wages, inflation and risk round to zero. For long-term capital gains inflation and risk are large and often the majority of the "gain". Short-term capital gains are already taxed like wages. In the US, unlike some other developed countries, there is a very limited abil…

Imagine the risk of not being able to diversify your portfolio and putting all dependency on one income source. How do layoffs, broken health/major sickness, automation, local downturns get compensated by reducing future taxes? If I'm laid off for a year, then find a new job, I still pay the full tax amount on my income from that point forward, no 'loss deduction' from a year being unemployed. If I get sick with cancer and miss years of work then return, I still pay the full tax amount on my income.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#204

Post by robert0z »

If we could all recognize that our money is the power, then we could all come together and not purchase things that are not for our interests. For example you see that chocolate that is 50 dollars a pound dont impulsively buy it because you love it so much, if you don't buy things that are unreasonable than they don't try to sell you things that are unreasonable.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#205

Post by j_w »

Buttons840 wrote: post #164
paulpauper wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're smart or lucky enough to to land that 6-figure job, then times are pretty good. There are tons of stories on subreddits, e.g. r/FIRE, r/investing, r/fatfire, etc., of people with large nest eggs and home ownership at an early age. But those are outliers. There are many opportunities to get rich if you are lucky and or smart enough to land them, like in tech or finance. But this is not much consolation for t…

The following site breaks down the living wage required for families of various sizes, and the wage of various industries. I compared the living wage for my own family size with the average wage per industry and realized there were only 3 industries I could earn a living wage in, management, computers, or legal. Fortunately I have experience in the computer industry (surprise HN). Let me spell it out. The following i…

My issue with "living wage" calculations is that they never compromise. I live in a county with great public transit. The living wage before taxes is listed as 61k for a single adult. Over 9k of that is allocated to transportation costs. Did I mention the great public transit? All of the buses are free.

Internet + mobile is 1500? Well gigabit fiber + mint mobile would run you 1200/year, so where is the extra 300 coming from?

American consumers are unwilling to tighten their belts for long term gains, and it shows. The comment you replied to mentioned r/FIRE - a lot of people on that subreddit don't have insane incomes, they just live well below their means.

This isn't to say it's not hard: it is. We live in a consumerist society and going against that is not easy. Having a low wage job is not easy. But saying the cost of living is as high as the livingwage site says is just not true. Their methodology is to obtain data from expenditure statistics - the problem is the average American is way too into consuming and spends beyond their means.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#206

Post by John23832 »

paulpauper wrote: post #97
jparishy wrote: post #66

Wealth inequality is high. High enough you can feel it like a vibe in the air. The richest people in the world are telling everyone to get onboard with technology that is determined to make a lot of those same people's jobs redundant. All with an explicit goal of increasing the price of stock most of those people do not own. IMO there's two economies, maybe divided by those who participate in the stock market and tho…

If you're smart or lucky enough to to land that 6-figure job, then times are pretty good. There are tons of stories on subreddits, e.g. r/FIRE, r/investing, r/fatfire, etc., of people with large nest eggs and home ownership at an early age. But those are outliers. There are many opportunities to get rich if you are lucky and or smart enough to land them, like in tech or finance. But this is not much consolation for t…

I think that also assumes that you're able to use that entire 6 figures for yourself. And that you're able to save in these HCOL places that the 6 figures are made. And/or that you're married.

Many of the people that I know in that 6 figure range (the "normal" 100-300ish range) are helping others. Family and the like.

It's also 3-4k for an apartment in many of the HCOL places. That's before food, transportation, and taxes.

And many people are doing it solo, not married.

I'm not saying 6 figure earners are to be pitied. I'm just saying that the money goes out the door just as quickly as it comes in.

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#207

Post by TuringNYC »

sdenton4 wrote: post #101
TuringNYC wrote: post #7

I live in a community full of high-achieving GenZ who did 4-7 AP courses, studied their butts off for the SAT, got into good universities....only to not find any jobs when they graduate with STEM degrees. A dozen neighbors' kids have been asking me for zero-salary jobs just to get experience.

Pretty much all of the good stuff I've done in my life have resulted from going off the beaten path. AP courses and SAT scores are the core of the beaten path, so everyone is competing for the same stuff. But the world is big, actually, and there's incredible opportunities for meaningful work once you start looking around more broadly. These sorts of jobs aren't necessarily "stable" employment, but I've never once fe…

While I agree with you on everything, this doesnt really work for everyone

1. It requires a level of maturity and wisdom most recent graduates do not have (I certainly didn't have this when I graduated). Despite all my entrepreneurship courses in college, working at a dot-com startup, etc, I wouldn't have been able to do this out of college.

2. Not everyone is going to be enterprising. Historically, we've provided a path forward to smart people who just want a line job, not start/sell a business

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#208

Post by slt2021 »

thesmtsolver wrote: post #135
Buttons840 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes are higher than capital gains taxes. This isn't based on economic theory or anything, it's just a political choice we have made as a country. We've chosen to reward those who move money around and trade capital more than we reward those who labor. And this at a time when, supposedly, the country is trying to increase its ability to build things. I thought this specific fact worth mentioning.

1. Only long term capital gains are lower than income tax 2. Long term investors invest in things that great new jobs, it is not just moving capital around.

its not only capital gains, it is the property and the system of shells and offshores that hides assets

https://x.com/Finance_Nerd_/status/1952063667458978160

https://x.com/Finance_Nerd_/status/1952063659599106545

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#209

Post by [deleted] »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #185
mcntsh wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> working hard at creating value does, and that is still true today This is the point that the parent was making. How you define "value" is the topic of discussion here, which in my opinion has become so abstract that it's impossible become successful around. Investors make money on failing businesses, software engineers make money on products that never monetize, top AI researchers make millions working for 2 weeks…

Value is something that motivates people to do work (that creates value). It's like bartering (I'll fix your car if you mow my yard), but currency makes work fungible (I'll fix your car for $80, and then pay another guy $80 to mow the yard). Key to this is understanding that someone might be willing to cut the yard for $75, and someone else might do it for $60. Probably no one for $20 though. Speculation, which you l…

[deleted]

Re: Americans Lose Faith That Hard Work Leads to Economic Gains, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

#210

Post by _DeadFred_ »

orochimaaru wrote: post #51

Isn’t this a bit obvious? I mean I’ve known this since I started working in 1997. The first job you have generally shatters this illusion that job security and economic gains are tied to “hard work”. In the sense hard work is needed but only if you see if adding to what you consider a quality of life (which could be economic gain, generational wealth, bragging rights to a promotion, etc.). Each person has their crite…

The current American system is premised on people buying into this. If people don't there is no societal foundation which probably leads to societal change. It's like the one societal contract we have (had). Not society helps you, not society puts a roof on your head. Not we're in a society together, so when you get sick we help out. Purely just 'if you work hard, you will be rewarded, and the rewards will take care of the things our social model doesn't'.
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