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Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

projecthyperion.org

201–210 of 330 posts

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#201
I have grown increasingly to think that interstellar travel will be done by acceleration/decceleration superstructures; moon sized railgun loops like particle accelerators except for spacecraft. Some form of Von Neumann machinery will be required to construct and maintain these.

This kind of system is the only way to:

1. Escape the tyranny of the rocket equation and

2. Harness the power of solar energy for transportation to its fullest

I wrote a draft proposal about this if anyone is interested!

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#202
> The idea behind a generation ship is that the initial crew would live, reproduce, and die on the ship, with their descendants continuing the journey until reaching the destination.

What a shame -- their basic premise is grievously mistaken. When we have the means to launch interstellar pioneering craft, people will have figured out the most logical, sustainable approach -- launch a set of frozen embryos, not a set of arguing adults.

The craft would gain speed toward a suitable target, then drift for centuries, no need to waste resources on living, arguing human beings. When the destination is reached, the craft will land and spawn a human crew at the destination -- using artificial wombs and robots to guide the children into adulthood.

Someone might object to the idea of letting robots teach humans, but hey -- look around. It's already true.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#203
No opinions on the ship itself, but the social proposals are very interesting :-)

Earth biomes will be kept intact with respect to their natural evolution. But human society will be treated as an amoral engineering problem seeking to optimize a few measurable parameters chosen up front. There is little sense in this proposal that human beings will bring along with them original sin or whatever you want to call it. But what allows human beings to flourish and keeps societies together, especially in conditions of scarcity (very much unlike the conditions of say the past half century), may not be obvious to the project planners.

In fact, much of what has been handed down to us in the legal and opaque cultural and religious traditions that have successfully survived such stresses in the past, is gleefully discarded.

The social engineering proposed is of the most dystopian and heavy-handed variety: it involves taking a group of volunteers to Antarctica to format them to a supposed sociocultural blank slate, followed by "characteristics monitoring". Despite the apparent care for superficial day-to-day happiness, human beings are to be indoctrinated to see themselves as discardable resources. They are not just governed with "mere" discipline, but with a program of violent population control (e.g. "maximum 2 childrens", "not necessarily with the same partner", "euthanasia", "not owned by the individual", ...).

So humans on Chrysalis will decide over every single aspect of life and death, not for themselves but for each other. But this time, unlike all earlier times, it will work because they're going to keep "governance architecture liquid, horizontal and inclusive" and "open source communities" and "not ethically compulsory" and based on "deep scenario exploration".

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#204
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Follows a classic sci-fi series arc, IMO. Brilliant, enthralling and at times terrifying first book, followed by several tomes of 'meh'. See also Night's Dawn.

the second is also really good. the second couple is... different. Good but not in the same league

Maybe it was just the last two I was thinking about. Been a while. These things start falling down when they start getting explained.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#206
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We couldn't even reliably get people to put a piece of fabric over their face Rural Americans couldn’t. But I don’t see anyone proposing we put high school dropouts and polio patients in space. China, India and Japan managed to pass that test just fine. I imagine one of the former two will be the first to colonise deep space.

Urban Europeans had just as much trouble (speaking as one).

"Europeans" is kinda broad brush. Norwegians around me had little trouble following the safety instructions.

Still not sold though that the cohesion in an small, resource constrained, artificial community can hold over a few generations. Huge risks of it degrading into some cult/dictatorship.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#207
I spent some time contemplating the analog of a shower or a bath and generally washing oneself and how that would look in a zero gravity based environment.

My favorite idea is "water" injected into a contained environment to produce a particular pressure and or flow setting with a scuba type hose for breathing. All liquid is evacuated through the base and an air jet helps produce a drying effect plus clear out the capsule before exiting. The same water is recycled as much as possible after a filtering desalinization and any chemicals used for the washing process would be closely matched with the recycling process. I toyed with the idea of multiple pods in a spindle rotating to simulate gravity but I'm not sure it's worth the effort since you can produce a type of pressure through controlling the liquid syrup injected into the limited space.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#208

No opinions on the ship itself, but the social proposals are very interesting :-) Earth biomes will be kept intact with respect to their natural evolution. But human society will be treated as an amoral engineering problem seeking to optimize a few measurable parameters chosen up front. There is little sense in this proposal that human beings will bring along with them original sin or whatever you want to call it. Bu…

For a deep dive into the psychological aspects of a forming colony I recommend KSR's Mars trilogy.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#209
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are never leaving this solar system unless we discover some new physics to get around our speed limitations The winning proposal coasts at 0.01c. Propulsion systems--not the speed of light--and thus engineering, not phsyics, are the relevant limitors.

Energy is the limit. If used Wolfram Alpha right for reasonable comparison that is largest cruise ship with mass of 248663000 kg to speed up to 0.01c mentioned the kinetic energy would be 2.9 times the worlds fossil fuel reserves... Then double that to slow down. And remember efficiency and that well you need to spend some to keep people alive... Seems like energy in general is one of the true problems.

> If used Wolfram Alpha right for reasonable comparison that is largest cruise ship with mass of 248663000 kg to speed up to 0.01c mentioned the kinetic energy would be 2.9 times the worlds fossil fuel reserves

This math is wrong.

Back of the envelope: accelerating 250 x 10^6 kg to 1% of c over one year is about 310,000 TWh. That’s like half of current annual energy production.

Even at like 10g, which would accelerate that mass to 1% c in less than half a day, you’d only use like a tenth of our 10^22 joules of fossil fuel reserves.

> double that to slow down

Why the asymmetry? 1x to accelerate, 1x to decelerate. (Less if you can aerobrake and/or use gravity assists.)

Taking the 310k TWh from earlier and doubling it, and assuming 18 MeV for D-T direct-drive fusion, and you need 6,600 kg fuel for the journey. (Plus propellant.) 100x that to account for inefficiency and cooling and you have 660 metric tonnes of hydrogen. That, if kept in its bastard liquid form, takes up about 3 Olympic-size swimming pools in volume.

Re: Project Hyperion: Interstellar ship design competition

#210
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being printed, every day, cell by cell.

But the process have been bootstrapped billions of years ago. They would have to print a feconded egg cell and make it grow. I think that the best we can do now is to freeze that cell and ship it to the next star. Then build the womb, which we can't do yet. And a zillion of other problems to solve.

No, they'd have to print the whole human that's encoded as data. Provided the process is fast enough, and the tech is available, it should be way faster than growing a full human from cells.

There's also no point in talking what can be done today, since such a project would take quite a while, both to assemble and get anywhere close to destination. Just because we cannot do it today doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered as a possible approach since we might get there in 30-50 years, which is nothing for the scales of time we're talking about.

Cryo tech is quite primitive, you are fighting to maintain a structure instead of saving its data and rebuilding it later when tech allows. Imagine 3D printing a benchy and freezing it so it stays "fresh" for 50 years (for some potential use at that time), instead of saving the benchy stl file and printing it in 50 years.

Plans for potential human expansion into our galaxy must include potential tech developments, can't block it to the tech that is available today. The way things are going there's no reason to discard full scan and reassemble of a full human being, in some future. Let alone moving consciousness on other type of more resilient hardware.

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