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EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

cointelegraph.com

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Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#201

Post by munksbeer »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #190
sackfield wrote: post #32

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

For me it is a sign the the EU construction does simply not work. It is an undemocratic technocracy that is easily lobbied by players pushing for this and I don't feel represented by a parliament where I don't know anyone. They circumvent the accountability of nation states, it is a development catastrophe since people cannot have a reasonable influence on policies anymore.

Nation states are the ones asking for stuff like this. The EU commission focuses on objectives set by the heads of the nation states. The elected EU parliament then votes on the proposals.

The bad thing about the EU is that it opens up views like yours, trying to absolve your own nation of any culpability, when that is just not true.

If you don't like the direction of the EU, vote in a government and MEPs who will steer it in a different direction. If enough people do this, then the EU changes, as happens in every democracy.

What you're seeing is simply democracy in action. You think these things are going against the majority, but the reality is, the majority of citizens are ok for this to happen at the nation state level, and by extension at the EU level.

Stop blaming the EU. It is lazy and makes the problem worse. Look closer to home.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#202

Post by raxxorraxor »

munksbeer wrote: post #201
raxxorraxor wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it is a sign the the EU construction does simply not work. It is an undemocratic technocracy that is easily lobbied by players pushing for this and I don't feel represented by a parliament where I don't know anyone. They circumvent the accountability of nation states, it is a development catastrophe since people cannot have a reasonable influence on policies anymore.

Nation states are the ones asking for stuff like this. The EU commission focuses on objectives set by the heads of the nation states. The elected EU parliament then votes on the proposals. The bad thing about the EU is that it opens up views like yours, trying to absolve your own nation of any culpability, when that is just not true. If you don't like the direction of the EU, vote in a government and MEPs who will st…

No, the institutions of the EU allow nation states to push through unpopular legislation, for which they could be held accountable on a national level. At least to a larger degree.

So in this case it is the fault of the EU as well because its structures allow this to happen.

I prefer battling one national government instead of 27.

The EU certainly isn't democracy in action, on the contrary it is highly technocratic. Without the promised proficiency though.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#203

Post by philipallstar »

Cartoxy wrote: post #17
philipallstar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having your shoes checked before a flight is also an annoyance!

Well. It is if you don't have a bomb isn't it? You trade it for your safety but since you don't die in a firey crash if the person 3 streets over is CSAMing its kinda unfair comparison

Well it's not if you're the child feeding the CSAM addictions.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#205

Post by AlecSchueler »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #190
sackfield wrote: post #32

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

For me it is a sign the the EU construction does simply not work. It is an undemocratic technocracy that is easily lobbied by players pushing for this and I don't feel represented by a parliament where I don't know anyone. They circumvent the accountability of nation states, it is a development catastrophe since people cannot have a reasonable influence on policies anymore.

But it works the same at the level of national governments. What's the difference?

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#206

Post by munksbeer »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #202
munksbeer wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nation states are the ones asking for stuff like this. The EU commission focuses on objectives set by the heads of the nation states. The elected EU parliament then votes on the proposals. The bad thing about the EU is that it opens up views like yours, trying to absolve your own nation of any culpability, when that is just not true. If you don't like the direction of the EU, vote in a government and MEPs who will st…

No, the institutions of the EU allow nation states to push through unpopular legislation, for which they could be held accountable on a national level. At least to a larger degree. So in this case it is the fault of the EU as well because its structures allow this to happen. I prefer battling one national government instead of 27. The EU certainly isn't democracy in action, on the contrary it is highly technocratic.…

You're making the mistake that populations don't want this, when it is largely in the realm of HN or reddit or wherever else nerds hang out. Population polls have repeatedly shown that people want age verification checks and are ok with message scanning "to save the children". Lot's of people are ignorant of the stupidity of this stuff, but that is democracy for you.

You're blaming the EU for something that is the fault of our populations, voting in governments who increasingly push these agendas. You're not helping anything by doing that.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#207

Post by raxxorraxor »

munksbeer wrote: post #206
raxxorraxor wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the institutions of the EU allow nation states to push through unpopular legislation, for which they could be held accountable on a national level. At least to a larger degree. So in this case it is the fault of the EU as well because its structures allow this to happen. I prefer battling one national government instead of 27. The EU certainly isn't democracy in action, on the contrary it is highly technocratic.…

You're making the mistake that populations don't want this, when it is largely in the realm of HN or reddit or wherever else nerds hang out. Population polls have repeatedly shown that people want age verification checks and are ok with message scanning "to save the children". Lot's of people are ignorant of the stupidity of this stuff, but that is democracy for you. You're blaming the EU for something that is the fa…

No, the population is completely in the dark about it because there is no media reporting on it. A real European media doesn't exist. Only people in tech aligned circles even know about these topics at all.

There are no real polls. Any positive poll asks about protecting kids in a populist way or it is framed as something combatting big tech, which is just as dishonest.

But the real numbers will be in if people don't submit any photos or IDs for some flimsy age verification.

Be that as it may, there are also constitutional protection against surveillance, regardless of popular support, which I argue doesn't exist.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#208

Post by raxxorraxor »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #205
raxxorraxor wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it is a sign the the EU construction does simply not work. It is an undemocratic technocracy that is easily lobbied by players pushing for this and I don't feel represented by a parliament where I don't know anyone. They circumvent the accountability of nation states, it is a development catastrophe since people cannot have a reasonable influence on policies anymore.

But it works the same at the level of national governments. What's the difference?

No, national governments are closer to the voting population and can be held accountable more effectively. That just isn't possible for EU institutions, parliament or not. The level of indirection matters.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#209

Post by AlecSchueler »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #208
AlecSchueler wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it works the same at the level of national governments. What's the difference?

No, national governments are closer to the voting population and can be held accountable more effectively. That just isn't possible for EU institutions, parliament or not. The level of indirection matters.

And would you be in favour of dissolving the national governments in favour of devolving power to even more local governments that are closer to their populations and even held even more effectively accountable? What's the ideal level of "indirection?"

Where do you draw the line/how do you strike balance? And I'm curious if you have an idea of an alternative for the regular coordination efforts that would be needed for the national/sub national governments in the absence of something like the EU.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#210

Post by nickslaughter02 »

sackfield wrote: post #32

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

The legislation would have to be proposed by the very same people who are pushing for this. It's not going to happen.
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