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TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

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Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#201
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This abuse of Excel might be in the running for a new form of esports.

It's always worth remembering there's exactly one reason Excel is abused -- IT isn't giving "non-developers" access to tools they need to automate their work.

Largely, yes. Another department built a Python script that mostly was a driver for Selenium, because while they weren’t allowed direct access to some DB, nothing stopped them from automating a script to click various buttons in the shitty IE6 web app and scrape the results. I also recall they found that while passwords for said web app needed to be changed every N days, there was no lookback, so they had the script rotate between two passwords.

In my case, another not-insignificant factor was that multiple people on the team were quite good at abusing Excel and VBA, but only two others knew any other programming languages. One of them was an engineer (not SWE, engineer as in fab tool engineer - I think he was an EE) who occasionally wrote stuff in C for fun, and the other was also an engineer, but one who had convinced management that we should create an in-house SWE team. Great idea, and we weren’t the first to do so; unfortunately our manager was abruptly replaced, and his successor saw no value in the proposition.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#202
post #168
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bigger issue than most people appreciate, and a huge problem for the USA. There is a specialised trade known as tool and die maker, or just die maker ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_die_maker ) that is fundamental to a country’s ability to create industrial capacity. So far, no automation tool has been able to replace their expertise. Without die makers, you can’t build tools that make things, yo…

If the average age is 73 that's the issue right there. People are refusing to retire at 62 and make room for juniors. Then when they finally do retire (73 average seems like "dies in office" levels) there are 2 decades of missing juniors who haven't been trained in the pipeline. This is the shortcoming with most technical fields. No one is incentivized to see the big picture of the training pipeline that exists well…

That may be the case in many industries, but I don’t think it applies in this case. The industry isn’t flooded with people looking to move up, it’s starving for interest. The problem is that you can farm out the work overseas for much less than you can do it locally, because our automation is decades behind China.

Chinese skilled labor wages aren’t that low anymore. The reason they can do most work for 1/10 of the local cost is advanced automation, government VC investment, and somewhat less c-suite greed. The incentive alignment of the government VC is also distinct from typical US VC.

We can’t even build the machines that would enable that kind of automation in the USA. We’d need to buy them from China, IF China was willing to sell them to us. Unlike the USA, China is probably not going to be stupid about diluting their advantages. I’m sure the CCP hasn’t forgotten the decades where we were unwilling to sell them high precision machine tools lol.

Unfortunately, we are more likely to see a slow deterioration of the US economy and infrastructure, until we hit about a 5-6x wage advantage over China which we could potentially use to copy the Chinese playbook and rebuild our presence.

I really hope I’m completely wrong lol.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#203
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always worth remembering there's exactly one reason Excel is abused -- IT isn't giving "non-developers" access to tools they need to automate their work.

while I don't doubt that such situations also exist, that wasn't the reason for any of the many "Excel abusers" I've encountered in different positions. Quite to the contrary, these people all had access to the appropriate tools, but their whole thinking was totally formatted and fixated on Excel as their go-to tool for everything: be it things better done with a database, a word processor, a diagramming program, a l…

Another reason I did so (at a different job, actually, the one immediately prior to Samsung) was that the only other language I knew to any degree was Python, and while I did compile one Python program for Windows to more easily distribute it, Excel Just Worked.

That one estimated nominal and peak loading on electrical distribution circuits by querying a DB for consumption on a given branch, and comparing it to a table containing current handling capabilities of various kinds of ACSR (overhead power lines). It was easier to do that in Excel because people were already used to it for various calculations.

Also if you’re wondering, yes, we had some bespoke software whose name escapes me that was specifically created to model electrical circuits; unfortunately no one knew how to use it, but one guy thought he did, and convinced management that we didn’t need to pay for training because he would train everyone else. He did not.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, which is all well and good if you're a benevolent actor, but ITAR really doesn't do anything at all to stop you from intentionally committing (corporate or actual) espionage if you want to. There should still be controls to prevent you from violating ITAR either accidentally or on purpose.

The controls are you go to jail if you get caught. At least this is what one is told in the mandatory ITAR compliance trainings. That seems to be how the law works for most crimes.

It's an incentive but it's certainly not a control. Controls stop something from happening, they don't respond to it after the fact. Controls would be things like security checkpoints, network monitoring, random searches, that sort of thing.

"You will go to jail if you kill someone" isn't a control against murder.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#205
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question your EV take. Tesla proved a business model, the technology and path from niche sports car to the best selling car on earth, and now on to the lowest cost per mile robotaxi. Simply knowing that a solution exists and is financially viable, is enough to motivate the competition.

>Tesla proved a business model Through almost all of Tesla's existence, its business model was ironically the sale of gasoline vehicles. Because, of course, Tesla's entire business model relied upon selling green credits to incumbent ICE vehicle makers. So it didn't really prove much of a business model, effectively being parasitic. >the technology and path from niche sports car to the best selling car on earth, The…

>now on to the lowest cost per mile robotaxi Is this a serious comment?

Absolutely a serious comment and why Waymo will likely be unable to compete. Tesla is designing their fleet for the lowest cost per mile, and likely the real reason why they have pushed back on Lidar versus camera - humans can drive with binocular (some with just monocular) vision, why use Lidar as it’s more expensive.

If a Waymo car costs $100k and is good for 100k miles, then that’s $1/mile. Tesla’s robotaxi is likely designed for 500k miles at under $0.10/mile. Tesla’s robotaxi will be able to drive me for cheaper than I’ll be able to drive myself. Think of a cab company with scale enough to build their own cabs, optimizing for the lowest cost per mile, and with $0 labor costs. That’s going to be their huge win. And no, I’m not an Elon fan, but I do understand his business plan, and it’s brilliant. And no, I don’t think it’s going to displace personal cars. There’s too much burst demand during rush hour for a peak scaled fleet to be cost effective (I haven’t run the numbers, so even that slight may be incorrect). However I do expect to never have to drive myself once I hit retirement age, and I’ll probably not even own the vehicle. My hope is that there will be a fast follower, able to compete against Tesla, otherwise I’ll be paying Tesla $0.99/mile instead of $0.12/mile.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#206
post #185
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the average age is 73 that's the issue right there. People are refusing to retire at 62 and make room for juniors. Then when they finally do retire (73 average seems like "dies in office" levels) there are 2 decades of missing juniors who haven't been trained in the pipeline. This is the shortcoming with most technical fields. No one is incentivized to see the big picture of the training pipeline that exists well…

The problem is that these jobs are hard and the pay is crap. SmarterEveryDay attempted to make a grill scrubber in the US. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZTGwcHQfLY tl;dr He did it, but it went very poorly.

Yes. Realistically speaking the value that a diemaker brings should easily be worth 2x or more their current scale.

The SmarterEveryDay piece was disheartening for sure, echoes what I have been singing from the rooftops ever since the government dropped the USA origin of manufacturing requirements for all purchases. Sure, it was a kind of corporate welfare, and it made for a tricky incentive misalignment, but it kept a lot of strategic industries on life support. We would be in a way, way better position now if it hadn’t ended.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#207
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This abuse of Excel might be in the running for a new form of esports.

It's always worth remembering there's exactly one reason Excel is abused -- IT isn't giving "non-developers" access to tools they need to automate their work.

I can only imagine the thousands of lines of code I saved by using Excel '97 for a scientific tabular calculation effort alone.

Because I had already done about the same thing in HP basic before PC's existed, when there wasn't a spreadsheet app anyway.

And it was on my mind the whole time.

It didn't take many more years before clients wanted their results in XLS on one tab and the invoice on another tab. Rather than the DOC files they had been wanting, which were reasonable facsimiles of the top linen typewritten paperwork I used to fax then mail by USPS or Fedex at the beginning. With the original invoice attached using a "gold" paperclip, nothing ever stapled or folded.

Oh how low I have sunk since then :\

Anyway it was pretty easy to switch from Word to Excel using the same fonts and similar formatting, even though direct integration was provided for, I just switched. When clients printed it they looked almost indistinguishable from my old typewritten multi-font documents.

And that just happened to put the paperwork onto the same spreadsheet as the data. Left one blank tab for future AI use, and the two tabs to send to the clients are in place to the right of that.

Eventually there were quite a few tabs in between the blank placeholder and the final two tabs that the clients would receive. Each with its own function to further leverage built-in Excel capabilities and make further progress toward a "paperless" office.

Saved gobs of code there too, but it gets "worse" from here ;)

It all came together by writing more VBA modules until there was an automation "shell" around the working system. Once complete it would stop so you could look at the data, decide what to type into the blank tab ("naturally", in the absence of AI) then hit the button.

And you were done.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The VBA hammer is real... it can force any screw, nail, staple into any hole you desire. Until the web version takes over, and you can no longer connect to anything real.

I doubt that the people who use Excel care enough about computers to be deterred by cloud.

The cloud version of Office365 Excel doesn't use/support VBA iirc. It also won't support, for example, connecting directly to a database.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#209
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building even basic things is difficult. Friend of mine tried like dozen companies from around the world to manufacture very basic milled aluminium part. None of them could make it. Only one company could make 1 or 2 right out of 100.

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Part certainly wasn't very basic.

Slab of aluminium milled to a flat triangular-ish shape about 10mm thick, then inside hollowed out to half depth and 8 counter-sunk holes non-tapped. Common issues: - item is not flat - nicks and dents on the edges - non uniform depth of the counter-sunk holes - holes in incorrect locations - unapproved changes to design - scratches - pores (poor material quality) - incomplete milling

Then parts have to be hard anodised and sand blasted.

- Sand blasting uneven - Sharp edges remaining - Streaks - Contamination - Exposed bare metal (it is only acceptable in the holes that could be used for hanging)

Companies also have virtually non existent QA. You can list them things that will cause rejection and they send it anyway.

One company told him after sending a batch that was complete carnage "We can give you $100 coupon for next order!" he insisted on rework. So they sent again, even worse.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#210
post #206
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that these jobs are hard and the pay is crap. SmarterEveryDay attempted to make a grill scrubber in the US. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZTGwcHQfLY tl;dr He did it, but it went very poorly.

Yes. Realistically speaking the value that a diemaker brings should easily be worth 2x or more their current scale. The SmarterEveryDay piece was disheartening for sure, echoes what I have been singing from the rooftops ever since the government dropped the USA origin of manufacturing requirements for all purchases. Sure, it was a kind of corporate welfare, and it made for a tricky incentive misalignment, but it kept…

As far as I understand you still have to buy US, and need approval if you cannot source domestically.

All our military work still uses US electronics shops and machine shops.

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