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Claude Code is a slot machine

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Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#201

Post by rstuart4133 »

globular-toast wrote: post #166
tptacek wrote: post #7

I didn't become a software developer so I could write the same SQL queries, the same plumbing code, the same boilerplate beginnings of programs, the same repetitive error handling, the same string formatting, the same report generation, the same HTML templating, and the same thread cancellation logic. I also didn't become a programmer so I could gratify myself by yak-shaving elegant helpers for those SQL queries, plu…

Me neither, that's why I write higher level abstractions or use libraries and languages other people have written. I don't get how you were writing so much boring stuff manually before LLMs. What do you do?

I'm not the OP, but from what he said I can tell you two things:

1. He is using computers to solve other peoples problems, and they are similar problems so all the code looks the same, and

2. He is NOT using computers to solve his own problems. Every top notch software engineer I've met does not write the same code more than a few times, because doing repetitive stuff is something a computer should be doing.

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#202

Post by danielbln »

troupo wrote: post #200
danielbln wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, there are different ways of using these tools. Slapping something into ChatGPT is one way, though maybe not the most efficient way of getting value out of these tools.

> Or, you know, there are different ways of using these tools. There aren't. Every new "one true way of doing it" that changes every few days runs into these problems.

Every iteration of the tools improves the output quality, many of the problems from a year ago are not problems today.

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#203

Post by gonzalohm »

danielbln wrote: post #177
gonzalohm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what should I have done differently? If I have to spend 1 hour to setup the AI tools then I'm not saving any time

Using an agentic coding assistant would be the first step (there are many, Cline, Claude Code, Gemini CLI and various others) as those can traverse the code base, execute tests, run queries or web search and feed the outputs back into itself to validate correctness of whatever the agent has created/done. You won't need to set up this stuff for an hour every time, you set it up once and then you just give it commands.…

How would adding my codebase help when I literally was starting from scratch and that's why I needed the configuration file?

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#204

Post by karmakurtisaani »

ben_w wrote: post #146
hakunin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been noticing the pattern among the kind of people who like/dislike AI/agentic coding: 1) people who haven't programmed in a while for whatever reason (became executives, took a break from the industry, etc) 2) people who started programming in the last 15 or so years, which also corresponds with the time when programming became a desirable career for money/lifestyle/prestige (chosen out of not knowing what they…

I don't know if there's a correlation between the groups as you say, but I will add some contradictory anecdata. I started learning to program at about the same age I learned to read, so since the late 80s. While I was finishing secondary school, I figured out from first principles (and then wrote) a crude 3D wireframe engine in Acorn BASIC, and then a simple ray caster in REALbasic, while also learning C on classic…

> They thought their code was beyond reproach, and would not listen to anyone (not just me) who did in fact reproach it.

With an attitude like this, they would suck as a colleague regardless of profession.

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#205

Post by ok123456 »

sarchertech wrote: post #167
ok123456 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely enjoy programming, but I don't enjoy doing maintenance programming on other people's horrible code. This is the sort of thing no one wants to do and leads to burnout. The AI won't get burnt out going through a static analysis output and simplifying code, running tests, then rerunning the analysis for hours and hours at a time.

Unfortunately we have no agreed upon metrics for simplified code. And we have no realistic way of taking a drastically refactored application that was the result of hours of changes by an LLM and being confident that it doesn’t introduce bugs or remove load bearing bugs. Static analysis and test suites aren’t good enough for pushing very large changes to production.

We have metrics such as cyclomatic complexity, the number of arguments, and the number of lines in a given method/function/file. These are usually fine to find the festering portions.

We also have no realistic way of being confident that letting a coworker/junior/intern make hours of changes will confidently not introduce bugs or load-bearing bugs.

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#206

Post by jaredcwhite »

The degree of after-the-fact ad hoc justifications for using these tools makes my brain hurt. "I'm in meetings all day anyway" …wtf?! So yay for the machines taking over our skillsets and hard-earned craft so we can attend more meetings*? Sure sounds like a hellscape to me!

* How 'bout I deploy my "digital twin" to attend the meetings for me. That'll show 'em!

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#207

Post by Melatonic »

hakunin wrote: post #51
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #25

> I became a software engineer because I loved the process of it. I could sit for hours, figuring out how to wire something up just so and get an idea made into something real. And it didn’t feel like work. It was just fun. Joyful. Satisfying. It's funny, because I do not like the process of software engineering at all! I like thinking through technical problems—how something should work given a set of constraints—an…

I've been noticing the pattern among the kind of people who like/dislike AI/agentic coding: 1) people who haven't programmed in a while for whatever reason (became executives, took a break from the industry, etc) 2) people who started programming in the last 15 or so years, which also corresponds with the time when programming became a desirable career for money/lifestyle/prestige (chosen out of not knowing what they…

I would say somewhat correct but your own bias might be coming through a tiny bit here :-)

I think it more comes down to one of your last points. It's not necessarily a difference specifically in who likes to use "AI" or not - in my experience there's just a different class of tech workers between new and old.

On one extreme you have the old greybeard maintaining mainframe systems with obscure COBOL niches that LLMs won't ever have insight into. On the other end you have people working on the latest shiny thing.

I don't think it comes down to money or love for the actual work - I know plenty of people invested in the math behind AI and how it might help them be more efficient coders. The divide (if we should even call it that) already existed in the way these two groups approach tech - AI and LLMs has just made it more obvious.

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#208

Post by nunez »

In other words: code assistants are going to wipe out software engineering (and adjacent roles) as a lucrative career path for generations to come...but not before our generation retires and "gets ours."

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#209

Post by nunez »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #25

> I became a software engineer because I loved the process of it. I could sit for hours, figuring out how to wire something up just so and get an idea made into something real. And it didn’t feel like work. It was just fun. Joyful. Satisfying. It's funny, because I do not like the process of software engineering at all! I like thinking through technical problems—how something should work given a set of constraints—an…

You don't like software engineering; fine.

I don't like how this technology is being shoved in the face of people who _do_ like being SWEs and got into this career path _because_ they liked it. All while ignoring the very-real and increasingly-discarded ethical concerns it brings and the massive, massive subsidation almost all of these tools are being fueled by.

That we're collectively _racing_ to have knowledge and means of production be centralized by a handful of massive corporations is shocking. And scary.

Re: Claude Code is a slot machine

#210

Post by tptacek »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #201
globular-toast wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me neither, that's why I write higher level abstractions or use libraries and languages other people have written. I don't get how you were writing so much boring stuff manually before LLMs. What do you do?

I'm not the OP, but from what he said I can tell you two things: 1. He is using computers to solve other peoples problems, and they are similar problems so all the code looks the same, and 2. He is NOT using computers to solve his own problems. Every top notch software engineer I've met does not write the same code more than a few times, because doing repetitive stuff is something a computer should be doing.

What a weird set of claims to make. I like how you worked backwards from "couldn't be a top not software engineer", whatever that means.
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