Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees • Hacker News Board

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#201

Post by mlinhares » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 12:45 AM UTC

mkw5053 wrote: post #23

It's amazing the impact that the reintroduction has had. On a recent winter trip there I also learned that the reintroduction literally moved rivers [1]: - Elk quit loitering along streams, so willow and cottonwood shot up, anchoring soil and narrowing channels. - The new woody growth gave beavers lumber; their colonies jumped from one in 1996 to a dozen within fifteen years, raising water tables and rebuilding wetla…

It’s hard to wrap your head around how complex the earth is and how we fucked it up. It’s great to see news like this, it shows we can and should undo the harms we’ve caused.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#202

Post by quesera » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 1:00 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #194

subscribed wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often hear this argument, "oh, but how far can we possibly go??! But deer are pretty?!", especially from farmers and grouse shooting estates here in the UK. It's wild, because it's so easy to measure and asses: an ecological desert, dying ecosystem, rich in single overgrazing specie is unequivocally bad. Rich, lush ecosystems sustaining great biodiversity and ecologically unique features (eg chalk streams or temper…

> But deer are pretty?! Deer are simply tall, disease-carrying vermin--basically rats with long legs. They eat everything. They multiply like bloody rabbits. They host a ton of diseases--especially when overpopulated (effectively everywhere that doesn't have lots of wolves or big cats). I really don't understand why we don't hunt them aggressively when there is no apex carnivore to keep them under control.

Adult humans are often infected with various forms of the Bambi-Rudolph disease complex. Usually acquired in childhood, and very difficult to cure.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#203

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 1:26 AM UTC

bongodongobob wrote: post #156

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the subsequent question is whether there are good places for ranches. If the benefits of predators reintroduction/protection become widely known, it will likely be practiced elsewhere in the future.

There are millions of acres to grow cows where there are no wolves.

[deleted]

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#204

Post by parpfish » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 1:52 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #183

rizzom5000 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're headed to a world with humans, livestock, and the few species... It looks more and more like we're headed toward a world where we'll regenerate extinct species in labs; and grow our steaks in meat factories. If we no longer need cattle farms, it's possible we'll vote to preserve more lands.

Is there any evidence this has any traction, is actually feasible (the reintroduction part), and is not merely a publicity stunt for some biotech startups? I think a more realistic point of view is that once a species is gone, it's truly gone, and that we should worry about keeping alive those still existing, because there's no "undo" button.

i've always wondered how these plans to bring back extinct species intend to copy the non-genetic factors that made a species what it was.

early life experience learning from parents/siblings are essential for knowing how to properly behave in their environment.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#205

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 2:14 AM UTC

rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

"Greater good" is a misnomer abused by all sorts of abusive meddlers.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#206

Post by chrisco255 » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 2:17 AM UTC

mykowebhn wrote: post #60

rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

Your question rephrased from an Indigenous People's perspective: "is the greater good more important than the original people who lived there ?"

The Clovis are indeed important but they no longer exist.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#207

Post by sdenton4 » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 2:47 AM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #187

rizzom5000 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're headed to a world with humans, livestock, and the few species... It looks more and more like we're headed toward a world where we'll regenerate extinct species in labs; and grow our steaks in meat factories. If we no longer need cattle farms, it's possible we'll vote to preserve more lands.

I’m usually the last person to take this side of a discussion but I don’t see how feasible since: - the existence species regeneration does not imply the incentivize to regenerate and manage the vast majority of extinct species - lack of gene samples for vast majority of species - we don’t and are not very close to having a viable model for environment and species fitness so we can’t accurately model what specifies t…

All completely correct.

It has been extremely difficult to reintroduce functionally extinct species (ie, regenrate populations in zoos, and then reintroduce them to their original habitat). The animal culture piece is really big.

But probably the biggest issue is that, in almost all cases, the problems that led to extinction in the first place - lack of habitat, poaching, etc - rarely get better with time.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#208

Post by the_af » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 3:10 AM UTC

parpfish wrote: post #204

the_af wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence this has any traction, is actually feasible (the reintroduction part), and is not merely a publicity stunt for some biotech startups? I think a more realistic point of view is that once a species is gone, it's truly gone, and that we should worry about keeping alive those still existing, because there's no "undo" button.

i've always wondered how these plans to bring back extinct species intend to copy the non-genetic factors that made a species what it was. early life experience learning from parents/siblings are essential for knowing how to properly behave in their environment.

That, and also how they expect to keep any species they manage to "bring back" alive (use of quotes because even that is questionable; the recent stunt with the "direwolves" didn't really create direwolves).

Which ecosystem are these species going to inhabit? How can we keep them alive when other currently existing species are at risk or going extinct?

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#209

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 3:16 AM UTC

rr808 wrote: post #57

I talked to a local who was friends with ranchers who now lose stock to wolves. They hate it. Its an interesting use case of local control, is the greater good more important than the people who live there?

Yes, that's why it's called the 'greater' good.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#210

Post by dboreham » Mon, Jul 28, 2025, 3:27 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #194

subscribed wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often hear this argument, "oh, but how far can we possibly go??! But deer are pretty?!", especially from farmers and grouse shooting estates here in the UK. It's wild, because it's so easy to measure and asses: an ecological desert, dying ecosystem, rich in single overgrazing specie is unequivocally bad. Rich, lush ecosystems sustaining great biodiversity and ecologically unique features (eg chalk streams or temper…

> But deer are pretty?! Deer are simply tall, disease-carrying vermin--basically rats with long legs. They eat everything. They multiply like bloody rabbits. They host a ton of diseases--especially when overpopulated (effectively everywhere that doesn't have lots of wolves or big cats). I really don't understand why we don't hunt them aggressively when there is no apex carnivore to keep them under control.

Hmm. I live among deer. They're fairly pleasant creatures and interact with other species such as magpies and house cats. We do have pumas and a few human hunters, and high speed motor vehicles, possibly the odd wolf here and there although I've never see one. Over 25 years I haven't noticed an increase in their population.