Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025 • Hacker News Board

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#201

Post by maest » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 3:58 PM UTC

magicalhippo wrote: post #182

plq wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ursula K. Leguin has a thought-provoking piece in this vein about why she wrote sci-fi: https://web.archive.org/web/20191119030142/http://theliterar... EDIT: Here's a better link: https://archive.org/details/dreams-must-explain-themsel-z-li...

I hadn't read that piece, but it's the conclusion I got to after reading a lot of sci-fi in my YA years. The sci-fi I enjoyed the most would make one impactful change, say allow for intergalactic travel like in The Forever War, or allowing people to backup and restore their brains like in Altered Carbon, and see where that leads. Others just use sci-fi as a backdrop for an otherwise conventional story, without really…

There's this quote I heard that said something along the lines of "Good sci-fi uses fictional technology to show us something about human beings that would be difficult to express otherwise".

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#202

Post by keiferski » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 3:58 PM UTC

saturneria wrote: post #70

keiferski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk was essentially a sub-type of counterculture, and counterculture itself has pretty much been dead for a couple decades now. When the hackers are primarily interested in VC funds, the cryptocurrency ethos overtaken by the finance industry, and the goal of every artist to “make it” as a creator, there’s basically no room for culture that explicitly wants to operate outside the system. You could probably tie t…

In the 70s/80s, the jobs that were available to you were basically what your family member could "get you in". I am of that age and I remember General Motors was a great place to work at that time. My friend "got in" after high school because his father was a union boss. For me, "getting in" to General Motors was literally impossible because I had no connections. I was into 90s cyberpunk and the problem was the ideas…

I don’t think that’s an accurate view of what the job market was like in the 70s and 80s.

My point was more that I think there was more of a feeling of security, in the sense that regular people felt a little more optimistic about the future and their personal finances. People started low on the totem pole but felt confident about moving upwards slowly. That feeling doesn’t really exist anymore.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#203

Post by KineticLensman » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 3:59 PM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #34

elcapitan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't read Fantasy in the first place, but Scifi often has technological concepts and ideas that are interesting by itself. I don't give a damn about mountains, whether people have green or pink skin or the stupid songs they enjoy to sing though.

> The difference between science fiction and fantasy…is simply this, science fiction has rivets, fantasy has trees. -- Orson Scott Card There is hard and soft types that muddy the quote, but it largely stands.

Another definition that almost works is the distinction between Not-Yet-Possible and Never-Possible - although this may fail when things like Faster-Than-Light drives are considered.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#204

Post by pieds » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:01 PM UTC

cshimmin wrote: post #127

pieds wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK certainly have had its own counterculture. In some ways more than the US. That still doesn't take away from the franchises being published (and in parts made) by US companies with US culture in them. The UK had an influence in punk music. But it was also banned by the BBC and bands were at times left to tour elsewhere. Japanese companies created most of the affordable electronic instruments. Yet, electronic mu…

So… your argument is that it’s not counterculture unless it’s mainstream culture? And that one should only credit derivative works once they become mainstream, rather than the original inspiring works because they were too obscure? I don’t think anyone is trying to “gotcha” you. You’ve just got a bad take.

Counterculture is a culture that is counter to the mainstream culture. If a culture is happy on its own, it is more of just a subculture. Cyberpunk itself features counterculture not just subculture, but is also inspired by the counterculture at the time.

Cyberpunk doesn't randomly contain megacorporations, harsh environments and loneliness but it reflects the worst-case scenario for the ideals at the time. The grey skies and rain is because of pollution having destroyed environment as was relevant in concerns over acid rain or the oil crisis at the time. It is literally in the name with "punk". Japan doesn't have that much counterculture so it could never be that influential in cyberpunk. Just like it could never be that influential in music.

Something can be obscure and influential, but there is a limit to how defining it can be. Akira and Ghost in the Shell (and some video games) have been influential and are frequently credited for that, but that is about it. Everything else including similar media before and at the same time as them comes from mixing in other things [0]. Just like in music.

Korea is currently success with K-pop. But that is nothing in terms of influence compared to TikTok.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cyberpunk_works

tl;dr: Cyberpunk is counterculture. Japan doesn't really do counterculture. Therefor it isn't very influential in cyberpunk despite having had influence.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#205

Post by fragmede » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

KineticLensman wrote: post #173

dfxm12 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ignorance had allowed me to romanticize it Clearly, this helps make works of sci Fi/speculative fiction/cyberpunk and related genres relevant far into the future. If you try to extrapolate current tech 50 years into the future, you'll probably get it wrong and people reading your books during the time it's set in will think it quaint. When you have to invent new future tech, it still feels mysterious and interesti…

> If you try to extrapolate current tech 50 years into the future, you'll probably get it wrong and people reading your books during the time it's set in will think it quaint. I'm now rereading old SF that I first read 40-to-50 years ago. I don't think I've found a single example where an SF author actually got tech right.

go back a bit further though and you'll get to Arthur c Clarke who accurately predicted geostationary communication satellites

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#206

Post by keiferski » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:02 PM UTC

roughly wrote: post #197

macleginn wrote: post #50

One thing that I found remarkable about Gibson is how a-technical he was at the time: "When I wrote Neuromancer, I didn't know that computers had disc drives. Until last Christmas, I'd never had a computer; I couldn't afford one. When people started talking about them, I'd go to sleep. Then I went out and bought an Apple II on sale, took it home, set it up, and it started making this horrible sound like a farting toa…

Gibson is such a unique sci-fi author because his fundamental interest is fashion (he’s said this himself) - his worlds are beautiful, but completely skin deep, and he’s a master of using one word or phrase to evoke an entire world or backstory, but you scratch at what he’s written and it’s all vibes. Bruce Sterling is similar, although maybe less of a fashion native - they’re both looking at people and at trends and…

For a long time I thought I really loved the cyberpunk genre. But I kept reading story after story by different cyberpunk authors and found them mediocre and cliche at best. The closest and best I could find was J. G. Ballard, who doesn’t really qualify as cyberpunk in a strict sense.

It was at that point that I realized: I’m mostly just interested in Gibson, not in whatever self-labels as in the genre.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#207

Post by corysama » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:03 PM UTC

macleginn wrote: post #50

One thing that I found remarkable about Gibson is how a-technical he was at the time: "When I wrote Neuromancer, I didn't know that computers had disc drives. Until last Christmas, I'd never had a computer; I couldn't afford one. When people started talking about them, I'd go to sleep. Then I went out and bought an Apple II on sale, took it home, set it up, and it started making this horrible sound like a farting toa…

The indie documentary https://wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Maps_for_These_Territories

has 3 main themes: 1) Gibson talking about Americana because he had a captive audience (the director) who promised to listen. 2) Gibson being self-deprecating because he promised the director he’d answer questions about himself. 3) Lots of other writers explaining what an experience it was to read Neuromancer when it first came out.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#208

Post by prettyblocks » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:06 PM UTC

ecocentrik wrote: post #106

I'm not seeing anyone mention of Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis, released a decade after Neuromancer and Akira. It's a significant contribution to the cyberpunk canon told from the perspective of an investigative gonzo journalist exploring all the oddities of his world. Goodreads lists it as the 2nd best cyberpunk manga after Akira.

It's a masterpiece. Surprised it hasn't been adapted as a film or series.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#209

Post by karolinepauls » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:07 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #75

keiferski wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyberpunk was essentially a sub-type of counterculture, and counterculture itself has pretty much been dead for a couple decades now. When the hackers are primarily interested in VC funds, the cryptocurrency ethos overtaken by the finance industry, and the goal of every artist to “make it” as a creator, there’s basically no room for culture that explicitly wants to operate outside the system. You could probably tie t…

> Cyberpunk was essentially a sub-type of counterculture, and counterculture itself has pretty much been dead for a couple decades now. When the hackers are primarily interested in VC funds, the cryptocurrency ethos overtaken by the finance industry, and the goal of every artist to “make it” as a creator, there’s basically no room for culture that explicitly wants to operate outside the system. Counter-culture still…

Sadly, the minorities (in the Anglosphere at least) don't deliver at either "think" or "independently". Their counterculture is as countercultural as joining a church. Just another way to fit in. Be be slightly different and they'll chastise you - a high-profile example of this mechanism has just happened again https://archive.is/qeDfU. Unless that's what it's always been.

Hooligan-like countercultures are also excluded as far as "think" or "independently" goes for an obvious reason.

Thus, the only independent thinkers I've encountered are individuals who don't aim to have all the answers, who can accept disagreements, who attempt to know themselves - but those are individuals, not countercultures.

I'm erring on saying that countercultures were never about independent thinking. They were about fitting in with different people.

Re: Reading Neuromancer for the first time in 2025

#210

Post by DrewADesign » Sun, Jul 13, 2025, 4:14 PM UTC

roughly wrote: post #197

macleginn wrote: post #50

One thing that I found remarkable about Gibson is how a-technical he was at the time: "When I wrote Neuromancer, I didn't know that computers had disc drives. Until last Christmas, I'd never had a computer; I couldn't afford one. When people started talking about them, I'd go to sleep. Then I went out and bought an Apple II on sale, took it home, set it up, and it started making this horrible sound like a farting toa…

Gibson is such a unique sci-fi author because his fundamental interest is fashion (he’s said this himself) - his worlds are beautiful, but completely skin deep, and he’s a master of using one word or phrase to evoke an entire world or backstory, but you scratch at what he’s written and it’s all vibes. Bruce Sterling is similar, although maybe less of a fashion native - they’re both looking at people and at trends and…

The heavily technical stuff is the reason that hard sci fi isn’t popular. Technically-minded people, even if they don’t get the specifics, are comfortable enough with technical stuff that it’s essentially decoration, and can probably intuit some things out if it through context. But non-technical people can’t just ignore what looks like a frustratingly opaque wall of gibberish, not realizing if any of it is crucial for plot advancement. Yet technical people are just as able to enjoy the vague vibe-tech stories as long as the author doesn’t try to fake the specifics. The system that Star Trek had in place was genius — the episode writers focused on writing characters, story arc, etc. and could add placeholders for tech talk. Then the script would get passed to specialized writers that could add in technical details to satisfy the persnickety trekkies fact-checking against their tech documentation.