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Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

blog.cloudflare.com

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Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#201
post #20

This is basically just how we want to do micro payments. I think coinbase recently introduced a library for the same using cryptocurrency and the 402 status code. In fact yea it's called x402. https://github.com/coinbase/x402

This is really interesting. Assuming I understood it correctly, I wonder why the protocol does not allow immediate return when it gave an address and payment amount. Subsequent attempts should be blocked until some kind of checksum of amount and wallet address is returned. This checksum should be verified by a third-party. This would save each server from implementing the verification logic.

Two missing pieces that would really help build a proper digital economy are:

1. If the content could be consumed by only the requesting party, and not copied and stored for future,

2. if there is some kind of rating on the content, ideally issued by a human.

Maybe some kind of DRM or Homomorphic Encryption could solve the first problem and the second could be solved by human raters forming DAO based rating agencies for different domains. Their expertise could be gauged by blockchain-based evidences and they will have to stake some kind of expensive cryptocurrency to join such a DAO akin to license. Content and Raters could be discovered via like BitTorrent Indexes, thus eliminating advertisers.

I say these as missing pieces because it will allow humans to remain an important part of digital economy by supplying their expertise, while eliminating the middle man. Humans should not be simply cogs in digital economy whose value are extracted and then discarded but should be the reason for its value.

By solving double-spending problem on content we ensure that humans are paid each time. This will encourage them to keep on building new expertise in offline ways - thus advancing civilization.

For example when we want a good book to read or movie to watch, we look at Amazon ratings or Goodreads review. The people who provide these ratings have little skin in the game. If they have to obtain license and are paid, then when they rate an authorship - just like bonds are rated by Rating agencies - the work can be more valuable. Everyone will have reputation to preserve.

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#203
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare has not used CAPTCHAs since 2023: https://blog.cloudflare.com/turnstile-ga/

Having to click "Verify you are a human" every single time is still awful.

Especially when it asks you to do it again, and again, until you realise you're never going to be allowed to see the page.

I've had that happen a few times with sites behind Cloudflare.

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#204

This seems like it’s going about things in entirely the wrong way. What this does is say “okay, you still do all the work of crawling, you just pay more now”. There’s no attempt by Cloudflare to offer value for this extra cost. Crawling the web is not a competitive advantage for any of these AI companies, nor challenger search engines. It’s a cost and a massive distraction. They should collaborate on shared infrastru…

Advantage is - you know don't have to run your own cloudflare solver which may or may not be more expensive than pay-per-crawl pricing. This is it, this is just "pay to not deal with captcha"

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#205
My gut reactions…

- I agree that something like this is necessary or the whole model of the internet will be broken, like Matthew Prince [explained in this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5C9EL3C82Y).

- Their approach seems very imperfect, but I understand that you have to start somewhere.

- They are paying per crawl… but in fairness it should really be per usage. It’s like paying music artists once when they upload to Spotify rather than per-play -- even though one artist gets zero plays and another gets ten million. Sure, the idea is crawlers will bid more for the popular content author, but what if a nobody author has a one-hit-wonder piece of content. They’ll still just get a couple bips per crawl and then the cat is out of the bag.

- One solution to this would be requiring a GDPR-style forget mechanism, where the author is granting a limited-duration license for the content (say… one week), after which it must be deleted and re-licensed. This would be a huge fix for the whole thing… and the more I think about it the more I think it’s essential for this to work.

- The auction mechanics are biased to the crawler… if there is a spread between artist price and crawler max price, then the crawler pays the lower price set by the artist. It should be the average.

- They will need to provide content authors with analytics about the pricing mechanics for the bids the crawlers are making.

- If this whole thing works, then products that optimize bid mechanics on behalf of authors will be a big growth industry.

- If Cloudflare are setting themselves up as the clearing mechanism for payments, that’s far too much power and profit for one company. It’s even worse than the Google monopoly. Somehow the payment mechanics need to be democratized.

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ignoring how people use things.

No, it's taking back control of what tools can be used to achieve a specific goal. If Google can't guarantee a good user experience but also correctness of the informations returned by their LLM than a ministry shouldn't stand for this and setup their own tools.

but why would people use the ministry's tool when they never use it fit anything else?

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynic in me says we'll be seeing articles about blog owners getting fractions of a tenth of a penny while Cloudflare pockets most of the revenue. And of course it will eventually be rolled out for everyone, meaning there will be a Cloudflare-Net (where you only can read if you give Cloudflare your credit card number), and then successively more competing infrastructure services (Akamai, AWS, ... meaning we get in…

I worked at Cloudflare for 3 years until very recently, and it's simply not the culture to behave in the way that you are describing. There exists a strong sense of doing the thing that is healthiest for the Internet over what is the most profit-extractive, even when the cost may be high to do so or incentives great to choose otherwise. This is true for work I've been involved with as well as seeing the decisions mad…

And then 20 years later Cloudflare hits hard times and gets bought by someone you don't like. The problem is that much power concentrated in any one place.

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google had an experiment called Google Contributor where you could buy all your own ads. This effectively had the experience you're describing (prepay and get no ads until it runs out). They tried it twice, so someone wanted it to work. I was always curious why they shuttered it.

Probably because people didn't want to pay. It's easy and cheap to say "I'd pay X to access website without ads!" ...but when it came to it and people had that option, essentially no-one did it.

I contributed ~$30 during both experiments. The most interesting aspect was seeing which sites consumed most of the spend. It also felt good to see the contribution to smaller sites.

Paying for my own ads felt similar to shopping at a local bookstore: I paid extra for the culture I wanted to see. There's a market for it, but, you're right, it probably wasn't big enough to justify its existence at Google.

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#209

What about if somebody uses artificial intelligence crawler to help them navigate the web as an accessibility tool? Enabling UI automation. It already throws up a lot of... uh... troublesome verifications.

How would an individual user use a "crawler" to navigate the web exactly? A browser that uses AI is not automatically a "crawler"... a "crawler" is something that mass harvests entire web sites to store for later processing...

How can you tell the difference, in a way that can't be spoofed?

This is a genuine question, since I see you work at CF. I'm very curious what the distinction will be between a user and a crawler. Is trust involved, making spoofing a non-issue?

Re: Cloudflare to introduce pay-per-crawl for AI bots

#210

How long before we get pay per browse and the internet is 6ft under?

A week. I'm constantly getting cloudflare nonsense that thinks I'm a bot. (Boring firefox + ublock setup.) I wouldn't be surprised if I start seeing a screen trying to get me to pay.

If so, I'll do what I currently do when asked to do a recaptcha, I fuck off and take my business elsewhere.

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