Live data from Hacker News

Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

spectrum.ieee.org

201–210 of 251 posts

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#201
post #180

I keep seeing these "grid synchronizing" inverters that don't require transfer switches and can generate to offset the energy pulled from the grid - in the event of a full grid outage, you can always manually hit the disconnect and run the home - provided the load doesn't surpass the generation capacity (or storage capacity if running with batteries). It seems like this hasn't really made it's way into North America,…

Grid synchronizing is not the same as being able to operate in island mode. The only reason you can run those inverters without an automatic transfer switch is because they don't function when there's no grid to follow so they shut off when power goes out meaning they don't backfeed the grid outside the home. A lot of inverters are just grid following and you need some other source creating the 60-hz signal for the s…

> motors starting

This is a big problem when working with single stage HVAC condensers. These motors can have a LRA rating of well over 100 amps.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But batteries aren't, and batteries are both the key technology for load shifting and the biggest expense in modern installations.

5kWh of batteries is under $1000. That's enough for load shifting for most people. Even if you need several of them, that's still going to be cheaper than installation labor.

That really depends on where you live.

I set up the batteries and inverter myself, but paid a local installer and his 2 helpers a grand total of $45 to install and ground 10 x 600w panels on my dangerously high metal roof.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where are you buying 5 kWH of batteries for under $ 1,000? The typical 5 kWh battery in Canada is C$ 3,000 - 4,000.

https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/batteries/?_bc_fsnf=... Server rack style, 1200 USD for 4.8 kWh = $250/kWh. Wall-mount, 14.3 kWh for $3.3k = $231/kWh. These guys seem to be the biggest DIY solar equipment supplier in the US. Afaik you can get batteries from China (AliExpress) for quite a bit cheaper too.

Yep I bought several Huawei 4.8 kWh batteries for about $450 each for an off-grid house in SE Asia. They've been working great a year later, running AC throughout the night.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the channelized sections of the Colorado would be a good candidate as well, though I personally believe the bigger solution is reintroducing beavers into the upper water shed, to increase total average flow.

How do beavers increase total water flow? I can see them causing more water to be held upstream.

It's counterintuitive, but beavers fundamentally change the soil conditions and cause a lot of the overall flow to be away from the surface.

Beavers are one of the sadly misunderstood creatures and are almost entirely responsible for all the good valley farmland we have thanks to their thousands of years of terraforming.

If you can afford the medium term loss of land, a beaver setting up a dam on your property is a good thing. Unfortunately, most cannot, or are unaware of the benefits they bring and only consider them pests.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#205
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild. I wonder how they deal with the back feeding issue. Is there something about the home wiring in those countries that prevents it? (or do they just not care and line workers know to check if a line is truly dead?)

I feel the real danger of back feeding is not that american line workers can't be bothered to check if the line is truly dead before starting to work. It's that the line could be reenergized at any time.

Also just the frequency with which work happens on the distribution grid. Most of Europe has almost all distribution lines underground (only running high-voltage transmission lines above ground), and unless somebody digs in the wrong spot they tend to just stay there. In the US meanwhile they are mostly above ground where they are susceptible to storms, falling trees, aluminum ladders and all kinds of other stuff that would cause a line worker to be called out

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#206
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely because they have building codes that prevent the construction of houses from matchsticks.

It has nothing to do with construction and everything to do with rainfall. I can throw a lit road flare into my back yard and nothing will happen, because I don't live in a glorified desert. PR is an order of magnitude wetter than where I live.

PR has a dry season when the island receives less rain, and there are dry regions that generally get less rain. In fact, there are sometimes forest fires [1].

Regarding construction, I've never seen a smoke alarm inside a residential building in PR. I would hazard a guess that this is allowed for concrete/cinderblock; presumably the roof thing is the same.

[1] - https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/seguridad/notas/incendio...

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#207
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. From first hand experience, even for regulated electricity markets, games get played to maximize profit per power generated that are directly making stability worse. Fixing these loop holes is hard for the regulator since they are instructed to encourage both increased renewable penetration and stability, despite traders/operators/producers not acting in good faith and just gaming whatever they can.

A healthy regulated will encourage maximizing profit for power and bring in competition which drives the cost down until energy is a commodity and the cost of electricity is actually based on the price of production and a small profit based on the cost of capital. Any situations that cause price spikes result in investment to harvest the difference. The fact that you can add to the grid by installing solar and batter…

> A healthy regulated will encourage maximizing profit for power and bring in competition which drives the cost down until energy is a commodity and the cost of electricity is actually based on the price of production and a small profit based on the cost of capital.

That is not how the electricity market works, in Australia anyway, and somewhat fundamentally everywhere. The network needs to maintain a frequency and voltage for it to be reliable. These change as load and production change. So consumers don't get a choice of which electrons power their house, only who they pay. They pay a 'retailer' who usually has nothing to do with production for a known cost per kwh + fees ahead of time. The market then operates where agreements between parties including retailers and produces (traders and others as well) has a 'market rate' that essentially arbitrage between longer term fixed rates and market rates.

The fact that the stability is tied to frequency and voltage (and infrastructure) means there is a limit to the rate of production and consumption, not to mention electricity is a necessity in the modern age.

In Australia at least we are finding out the hard way about what happens when you privatize a necessity. People will pay whatever it costs, and since the market needs a high level of regulation just to function, a market IMO is just a bad fit for trying to bring costs down rather than just rent seeking.

> The fact that you can add to the grid by installing solar and battery and connect to the grid in a single afternoon

That has become harder in recent time due to areas being over saturated by solar. Cities in Australia can deny you connecting to the grid if there is too much, as well as we have high network voltage detection on inverters which now kick in on many sunny days due to again, too much solar. Electricity network operators pay a large amount of money to services to predict/model how much of the power in their network is coming from solar and where because they commonly don't know, so it becomes a difficult balance of how much solar you are allowed to connect.

> but with the right equipment you can have community sized islands that can be much more immune to instability.

Agreed, but due to the required _shared_ infrastructure for this to work will need public land to connect these islands or even within an 'island', as well as the now private vested interests in rent seeking, this will be a fringe solution only available to those with larger amounts of land like communes or other rural setups. Again, speaking to Australia.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to have some form of solar work out cost-wise for me here in Seattle -- there just aren't enough sunny days throughout the year to make solar financially make sense, even over a 20-year period. At least from what the solar calculators I've found on the web would have me believe.

That is wrong. I’m over 2000km north of you in a tight valley that snows a lot. The 7.8kw system on my roof will be paid back in about 7 years.

How cloudy is it up there though? Seattle has a lot of overcast days.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#209
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grid synchronizing is not the same as being able to operate in island mode. The only reason you can run those inverters without an automatic transfer switch is because they don't function when there's no grid to follow so they shut off when power goes out meaning they don't backfeed the grid outside the home. A lot of inverters are just grid following and you need some other source creating the 60-hz signal for the s…

> motors starting This is a big problem when working with single stage HVAC condensers. These motors can have a LRA rating of well over 100 amps.

There are solutions like Microair easy start - these are pretty common on generator setups too as these peak starting amps can snuff a generator too.

Re: Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout

#210
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want to run your home loads, the cheapest/simplest way (without going grid-tie) is to have an electrician add a critical loads panel supplied by your inverter output ..." No, that's actually not the simplest. Far simpler is to install a solar breaker in your main panel and a physical lockout[1] between utility power and the new solar breaker. There is no ATX, there are no smarts, the power goes out and you fl…

Changing your usage pattern isn't simpler. When I mean simplest, I meant a solution that doesn't rely on doing anything. If/when Solar isn't enough or your batteries deplete, it just falls back to grid. Power outage? Your critical items automatically are backed by solar/battery. Having to think about your what high draw appliances are running and using additional power adds mental load (ie complexity) and is an immed…

'Simple' and 'Easy' are very different things
Post reply on HN