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Now might be the best time to learn software development

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Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#201

Post by rsynnott »

nathanfig wrote: post #52
alganet wrote: post #45

> and now with far greater reach and speed than ever before I heard that before. Borland Delphi, Microsoft FrontPage, Macromedia Flash and so on. I learned how in 5 years or so, these new technologies would dominate everything. Then I learned that two scenarios exist. One of them is "being replaced by a tool", the other is "being orphaned by a tool". You need to be prepared for both.

Yes, if you built your career on FrontPage you have probably had a bad time. Many such cases. That said, even if the specific products like Cursor or ChatGPT are not here in 5 years, I am confident we are not going to collectively dismiss the utility of LLMs.

I'm... slightly dubious, honestly, just because, historically, confident predictions of "this is the future of programming!" are almost always wrong. Throughout the 90s and into the early noughties, say, there was a very, very strong idea that things like VB and Delphi and Frontpage and Flash, where code was essentially intermingled with the UI, were The Future. And then all of that just died, to such an extent that there's really nothing like it at all today. Then there was the whole UML thing, and the "everything will run on XML" thing in the mid to late noughties...

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#203

Post by redeeman »

jdright wrote: post #199
bgwalter wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mention one or two people, I mentioned a theoretical strategy that is also employed by non-unionized bureaucracies. And I admitted that the strategy is impeded by the fact that many software developers are self-loathing people with no spine. It is possible that obedient people need highly paid union bosses, i.e., new leaders they can follow.

You're wrong, obedient people are exactly the type that don't need unions, they are obedient and accept anything. Unions are for people that don't accept anything and know that they are a target taking action alone or in non organized ways. Unions are the way to multiply the forces and work as a group with common interests, it is for people that are not extremely selfish and egocentric.

why do you need a union? everyone should just set their personal standards for what they accept/demand, and then let the market sort it out? someone wants to work for $20/hour programming, in a fashion that can satisfy some demand? great, then I will simply NOT be doing that job. Everyone wins even though I do not get that particular job. Someone is willing to work 7 days a week as they prefer to grind to earn more money? good on them. Its not gonna be me, They win the job, I dont.

Nobody wants to inhale toxic fumes in some factory? well then the company had better invest in safety equipment, or work dont get done. We dont need a union for this

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#205

Post by Izkata »

bonoboTP wrote: post #195
soco wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excel enters the chat

For some strange reason Excel really managed to do it. Many many people who don't think of themselves anywhere near being a programmer, somehow get at ease in front of Excel enough that they often inadvertently and kind of unawarely end up learning programming concepts and creating much more complex computational applications than its been possible with any other tool for non-developers.

I have a theory on that, based on something I do that over the years I've learned a lot of my co-workers don't do: When I'm reading code, I have the contents of the variables all in mind and am manipulating them as I read the code. When describing it a couple of times they've said "oh, like a human compiler"... So I really don't know what's going on in their heads, but this seems like the reason I can understand code I haven't seen before faster than most of them.

Spreadsheets flip the usual interface from code-first to data-first, so the program is directly presenting the user with a version of what I'm doing in my head. It allows them to go step-by-step building up the code while focusing on what they want to do (transform data) instead of having to do it in their head while focusing on the how (the code).

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#206

Post by dboreham »

bgwalter wrote: post #182
guicen wrote: post #131

In fact, in my opinion, one of the benefits of AI tools that is often overlooked is "psychological support". When you are stuck at work, it will give you a push. Even if it is not completely right, it is enough to get you moving. The feeling of "no longer fighting alone at work" is actually more important than many people think.

To each his own. I'm completely drained after 30 min of "discussing" with an LLM, which is essentially an overconfident idiot. Pushes never come from the LLM, which can be easily seen by feeding the output of two LLMs into each other. The conversation collapses completely. Using Google while ignoring the obnoxious and often wrong LLM summaries at the top gives you access to the websites of real human experts, who oft…

> an overconfident idiot

So we are close to an AI president.

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#207

Post by dijksterhuis »

lupire wrote: post #82
dijksterhuis wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does every system need to be efficient?

Sorry to be that guy, but would to prefer if your computer and phone each cost $5000?

> The solution isn't "let's stop online flight bookings sites and protect travel agents" because that's an inefficient system

this is akin to the self-checkout aisles in supermarkets, some of which have been rolled back to add back in more human checkout staff.

why? people liked interacting with the inefficient humans. turns out efficiency isn’t ideal in all cases.

i wasn’t trying to argue that everything should be inefficient. i was trying to point out that not everything needs to be efficient.

two very different things, and it seems (?) you may have thought i meant the former.

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#208

Post by aaronbaugher »

redeeman wrote: post #203
jdright wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong, obedient people are exactly the type that don't need unions, they are obedient and accept anything. Unions are for people that don't accept anything and know that they are a target taking action alone or in non organized ways. Unions are the way to multiply the forces and work as a group with common interests, it is for people that are not extremely selfish and egocentric.

why do you need a union? everyone should just set their personal standards for what they accept/demand, and then let the market sort it out? someone wants to work for $20/hour programming, in a fashion that can satisfy some demand? great, then I will simply NOT be doing that job. Everyone wins even though I do not get that particular job. Someone is willing to work 7 days a week as they prefer to grind to earn more m…

History, especially the industrial age, says that attitude leads to a race to the bottom. There's always someone who's willing to work for a little less, in a little shittier conditions, to pack a few more family members into a shitty apartment to make do.

If you leave it up to each worker to fend for himself with no negotiating power beyond his personal freedom to walk out, you get sweatshops and poorhouses in any industry where labor is fungible. If you want nice societies where average people can live in good homes with yards and nearby playgrounds and go to work at jobs that don't destroy their bodies and souls, then something has to keep wages at a level to support all that.

I'm not necessarily a fan of unions; I think in many cases you end up with the union screwing you from one side while the corporation screws you from the other. And the public sector unions we have today team up with the state to screw everyone else. But workers at least need the freedom to organize, or all the pressure on wages and conditions will be downward for any job that most people can do. The alternative is to have government try to keep wages and conditions up, and it's not good at that, so it just creates inflation with wages trailing behind.

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#209

Post by Funes- »

sarchertech wrote: post #76
bluefirebrand wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> World will have lots more of apps, and programmers. This is actually bad for existing programmers though? Do you not see how this devalues your skills?

There are far more programmers now than in 1980, yet the average programmer makes far more (inflation adjusted) now.

And the quality of what they develop is in the gutter, on average.

Re: Now might be the best time to learn software development

#210

Post by croes »

guicen wrote: post #131

In fact, in my opinion, one of the benefits of AI tools that is often overlooked is "psychological support". When you are stuck at work, it will give you a push. Even if it is not completely right, it is enough to get you moving. The feeling of "no longer fighting alone at work" is actually more important than many people think.

Could work in the other direction. When you are stuck and get the solution from the AI you lose the feeling of achievement because it’s done by somewhat/someone else
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