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The Brief Origins of May Day

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Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#201

Post by dragonwriter »

reillyse wrote: post #196
bee_rider wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always thought of it in these terms: Working class: you are sustained by your current labor. Upper class: you can sustain yourself based on the returns from your investments more-or-less indefinitely. Middle class, between the two: you can sustain yourself off your investments for so long that you can’t practically be threatened by unemployment. It is a labor relations issue explicitly, you need a union if you a…

I honestly think the "middle class" idea is just a fallacy. It feels like it's used by people to distance themselves from "working class" because they feel that working class is somehow beneath them. All of the middle class in todays parlance are just slightly more affluent working class. If you sell your time for money you are working class. If you make money from having money you are bourgeoisie. If you have to thi…

The usual American idea of “middle class” is mostly (thoufh it tends to be defined more by income than actual means of relating to the economy) a mix of the upper income segment of the primarily labor-dependent class (working class/proletariat) and the lower (comparatively) income segment of the mixed labor/capital-dependent class (petit bourgeoisie).

The middle class (petit bourgeoisie) is real, but its not centered around middle income (it is middle in the sense of being between the dominantly capital-dependent class and the dominantly labor-dependent class, primarily in how it relates to the economy, but in practice also on average, in income and wealth, but it is still an elite minority, just less so than the haut bourgeoisie that sits at the top.)

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#203

Post by matkoniecz »

flmontpetit wrote: post #187
matkoniecz wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The threat of violence is the only way social progress has ever been made. This is a lie. Poland and many areas occupied by Russia managed to end Russian control without this.

In other words, the rest of of us should just wait until some foreign powers dissolve our oppressors for us?

People in Poland (and other areas under control of Russia) put a lot of effort into kicking out Russians and their puppets.

It was not a case of waiting until foreign powers did it. (though there was a bit of external help)

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#204

Post by dang »

amarcheschi wrote: post #21
brickfaced wrote: post #17

[flagged]

[flagged]

It's not ok to post political or ideological flamewar comments to HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.

Both of your posts to this thread (this one and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43857366) have broken the site guidelines.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#205

Post by dang »

gymbeaux wrote: post #51

[flagged]

If you're referring to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43857048 ("everyone who isn’t a bootlicker"), then obviously you broke at least these:

"Eschew flamebait."

"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle."

"When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

That means the users who flagged your post were correct to do so.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#206

Post by matkoniecz »

9rx wrote: post #193
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make a lot of money. Money pays for healthcare, childcare, paternity/maternity leave, retirement, food, housing, transportation, in addition to recreation. Our "struggle" is invented. Oh, career burnout huh? So you're working yourself harder than you have to in order to make more money? Sounds tough. And small equity grants? Oh gosh, how dare they not give us even more money . People who don't make a lot of money…

> We make a lot of money. Not compared to many unionized industries. Workers in professional sports and entertainment, for example, which fully embrace labor unions, make software developers look like they work for peanuts. > Unions exist because workers were literally being killed by their employers. Labor unions have formed when death was actually on the horizon because death was on the horizon, but labor unions to…

> Workers in professional sports and entertainment, for example, which fully embrace labor unions, make software developers look like they work for peanuts.

I am pretty sure that union is not the most significant part why pay is high here.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#207

Post by GuinansEyebrows »

constantcrying wrote: post #68
parpfish wrote: post #16

Why don’t labor issues resonate more with tech workers? I know that we’re not a monolith and are actually a heterogeneous mix of opinions, but there frequently talk about job dissatisfaction (career burnout, comically stingy equity grants, etc). But when organizing comes up, it’s usually treated with disdain because so many have bought into highly individualistic hustle-culture and the narrative that unions only exis…

[flagged]

Unless you're part of the owner class, you're still working class.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#208

Post by bee_rider »

reillyse wrote: post #196
bee_rider wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always thought of it in these terms: Working class: you are sustained by your current labor. Upper class: you can sustain yourself based on the returns from your investments more-or-less indefinitely. Middle class, between the two: you can sustain yourself off your investments for so long that you can’t practically be threatened by unemployment. It is a labor relations issue explicitly, you need a union if you a…

I honestly think the "middle class" idea is just a fallacy. It feels like it's used by people to distance themselves from "working class" because they feel that working class is somehow beneath them. All of the middle class in todays parlance are just slightly more affluent working class. If you sell your time for money you are working class. If you make money from having money you are bourgeoisie. If you have to thi…

What is it about the owner of a small tech company that potentially bumps them into the middle class, in your view?

I like the definition I provided because it seems functional to me; it describes classes with labor-capital relationships, and describes how the incentives influence their behavior.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#209

Post by GuinansEyebrows »

constantcrying wrote: post #86
masijo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, there's a lot more to the working class than just manual labor. Anyone that depends on a wage to live is a worker, and we all share the same struggles.

The same struggles, like the quality of the office coffee machine? Bike subsidies from the employer too low?

Things like unpaid overtime, health insurance being tied to employment, the ability to afford a house on what should be a reasonable income, protections from harassment/discrimination... unions have worked toward democratizing access to all of these things.

Re: The Brief Origins of May Day

#210

Post by dang »

All: Hacker News is for curious conversation.

Bashing people who hold opposing views with harsh phrases driven by pre-existing emotion is not only not curious conversation, it poisons it.

Unfortunately, quite a few of you have been doing that in this thread. That's not ok, and no, the topic does not excuse it—on the contrary: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

If you aren't feeling curious, or can't post thoughtfully and substantively, please take a break until you are and can.

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