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Encryption Is Not a Crime

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Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#201

Post by 9rx »

kube-system wrote: post #198
9rx wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you intended to reply to a different thread and accidentally ended up here instead, there is truth to what you say, but it has nothing to do with this one. As it pertains to this thread, where the sole key holder is dead and took the knowledge with him, how do you anticipate to carry out gaining access to the data using live attacks? There are plenty of reasons why the government wants access to data even where pr…

The overlap between data that was never shared and data that is relevant after the person was dead is excruciatingly small.

It is excruciatingly small in all cases, which is why laws haven't been crafted yet. But if that changes...

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#202

Post by diffeomorphism »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #190
diffeomorphism wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no service offering encryption has existed since 1755? Because that is required for your argument. Otherwise you simply send unimportant stuff via USPS and sensitive/secret/important stuff via non-USPS.

My vote, my taxes, my REAL-ID driver license, passport, credit cards, phone SIM, checks, 401k statements, etc. have very recently been sent via USPS. Do you consider this unimportant stuff?

You apparently do.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#203

Post by [deleted] »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #197
TehCorwiz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see a case against someone that hinged on some data that was encrypted. Almost every tale from some cell needing to be cracked has ended in a fart because they got the information anyway using old-fashioned police investigation. We went from Patriot Act to literally disappearing people without due process in only 23 years. Imagine if they could also decrypt your phone and plant evidence in advance.

Here's one: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2021/05/23/meet-man-b...

[deleted]

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#204

Post by HDThoreaun »

gruez wrote: post #154
HDThoreaun wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How often are people saying their bank login on their phone calls? 2. Is there a way for phone call man in the middlers to get that info without wasting a ton of time listening to calls? With internet MITM it is very easy to set up a program that scrapes unencrypted login info.

>1. How often are people saying their bank login on their phone calls? Have you ever called into a bank or brokerage? Most ask "security questions", often ones that you can't even choose, like your address or how many accounts you have with them. It's arguably far worse than speaking your password into the phone. >2. Is there a way for phone call man in the middlers to get that info without wasting a ton of time list…

Its about threat levels I guess. I was man in the middling passwords in high school without knowing much of anything about technology. Setting up speech recognition alone is a task that most people are incapable of doing. If youre worried about the type of people who can set that up you probably shouldnt be giving that info out on a phone call.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#205

Post by jvanderbot »

xnickb wrote: post #82
Retr0id wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also, unfortunately, not literally/universally true. There are plenty of jurisdictions and contexts in which it is a crime.

A friend of mine had to swear on a holy book to not use VPN upon returning to their country of origin.

This would make me nervous, but also optimistic that it's difficult to detect? Otherwise why use hell as a deterrent?

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#206

Post by 9rx »

voidUpdate wrote: post #53
mathieuh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arguments from the other side are of the "think of the children" and "tough on crime" variety. They are purely emotional and if you try to dispute them they just respond with "so you don't care about children?". It's like trying to argue with a religious person on matters of faith, you're just not very likely to convince them. *edited to add "on matters of faith"

"Think of the children" is used so often when talking about LGBT issues, often not thinking at all about the LGBT children

"Think of the children" really means "Think of my children". Nobody gives a shit about someone else's children.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#207

Post by seyebermancer »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #204
gruez wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. How often are people saying their bank login on their phone calls? Have you ever called into a bank or brokerage? Most ask "security questions", often ones that you can't even choose, like your address or how many accounts you have with them. It's arguably far worse than speaking your password into the phone. >2. Is there a way for phone call man in the middlers to get that info without wasting a ton of time list…

Its about threat levels I guess. I was man in the middling passwords in high school without knowing much of anything about technology. Setting up speech recognition alone is a task that most people are incapable of doing. If youre worried about the type of people who can set that up you probably shouldnt be giving that info out on a phone call.

“Setting up speech recognition alone is a task that most people are incapable of doing”

If you were MITM is HS- your modern day equivalent is way stronger than you think. Easy for kids to clone voices and deepfake these days. Anybody can ask any one of the free chatbots out there for a step by step guide to implement this- they will even write the Python script for you, tell you what IDE to download and how to run it out of the terminal.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#208

Post by palmotea »

lucianbr wrote: post #194
palmotea wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You should engage with the arguments the other side makes. > The arguments are "Protect the children.", "Catch terrorists.", "Catch criminals.". > Those arguments have been engaged with for decades. They are purely emotional arguments. Anyone who still pushes those arguments forth is most likely doing so with ulterior motives and cannot be reasonably "engaged" with. Oh come on. Why do you think a "purely emotional…

Those are both reasoned arguments. The emotional argument would be "some guy is so bothered by sexual abuse he wants to ban lightbulbs because once he heard about a lightbulb in the context of an abuse". The "solution" is not really a solution, but the emotional person does not really care about solutions, he's too emotional to think straight. At least that is how I see the word used.

> Those are both reasoned arguments. The emotional argument...

Rationality and emotionality are not mutually exclusive, and I would say there are very, very few arguments that are devoid of emotion.

The the GP was using "emotional" to dismiss the kind of arguments you're saying are reasoned.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#209

Post by ziddoap »

palmotea wrote: post #208
lucianbr wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are both reasoned arguments. The emotional argument would be "some guy is so bothered by sexual abuse he wants to ban lightbulbs because once he heard about a lightbulb in the context of an abuse". The "solution" is not really a solution, but the emotional person does not really care about solutions, he's too emotional to think straight. At least that is how I see the word used.

> Those are both reasoned arguments. The emotional argument... Rationality and emotionality are not mutually exclusive, and I would say there are very, very few arguments that are devoid of emotion. The the GP was using "emotional" to dismiss the kind of arguments you're saying are reasoned.

>The the GP was using "emotional" to dismiss the kind of arguments

I'm dismissing arguments that are designed to appeal to (and manipulate) the emotions of the person listening. Such as the three examples I gave, which are, in almost every case, used to win an argument without having to consider any possible nuance of the situation.

Often, it's a completely thought-stopping appeal, because everything is simply countered with "so you don't care about children". Or, in your case, subtlety alluding to me being tolerant of CSAM (which was wildly inappropriate, albeit a great example of why I generally just don't talk to people who use those types of arguments).

Apparently that makes me galaxy-brained or whatever, though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#210

Post by nradov »

gruez wrote: post #117
kube-system wrote: post #26

This is too many words to convince someone who already doesn’t believe this. Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything.

>Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything. I'm pretty pro encryption, but even this is pretty dishonest. Phones (ie. PSTN, not iPhones) aren't "encrypted" by any means, but there's plenty of sensitive information sent over it. Lawyers fax each oth…

Allowance for using faxes to send protected health information (PHI) as defined under HIPAA was essentially grandfathered in for practical reasons, not because it is at all a secure enough communications system for sensitive data. If faxing medical records had been banned then the healthcare system would have come to a halt, which would have been worse then the privacy risk. But if fax was invented as something new today it would never be allowed for PHI.

It's only recently that more secure alternatives to faxing have become practical, like DirectTrust Secure Direct Messaging.

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