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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#201
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US rarely looks into how other countries solve problems. (i.e. Universal Healthcare, High Speed Trains and so), this is the sad part of "American Exceptionalism"

A less cynical framing is that the US is a much different culture from European countries, and is massively larger in scale. Depending on the problem, some of their solutions simply can't or don't apply.

I got a Master's Degree in Education and spent 2 years in Educational Psychology Ph.D. program and absolutely 0 time was spent looking at how other countries do education.

It's baffling how despite numerous other countries outperforming the US in educational outcomes we do not even look at other approaches!

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#202
post #173

This is one of these US-specific polarised debates I find really bizarre, around some kind of issue that the rest of the world has by large solved but without any acknowledgement of this fact. Maybe the US should look into how other countries have solved it? It is completely bizarre witnessing both sides getting so polarised around a basically non-issue.

The US rarely looks into how other countries solve problems. (i.e. Universal Healthcare, High Speed Trains and so), this is the sad part of "American Exceptionalism"

Those are two odd examples. The Affordable Care Act is similar to the Netherlands health insurance system: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2011/lessons-abroad-du... (“These similarities are not entirely coincidental. American public officials, health industry leaders, and scholars made frequent visits to the Netherlands in the run-up to the debate over U.S. health care reform, borrowing ideas and, on occasion, citing the Dutch system as a model for what the U.S. might achieve.”).

As to rail, both the first-gen and second-gen Acela is based on the French TGV.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#203
post #151

This is one of these US-specific polarised debates I find really bizarre, around some kind of issue that the rest of the world has by large solved but without any acknowledgement of this fact. Maybe the US should look into how other countries have solved it? It is completely bizarre witnessing both sides getting so polarised around a basically non-issue.

How has the debate been solved by the rest of the world? My understanding is that many countries in Europe don't fluoridate the water supply. I'm skeptical of results showing IQ loss but I also think fluoridation should be phased out as fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash are now widely available. Banning it seems like the wrong move to me...states should simply decide to continue adding it or not.

> How has the debate been solved by the rest of the world?

By having official country-level guidelines by the health ministries or similar for people to brush their teeth with toothpaste containing fluoride, and specific guidelines around it for kids, as trivial as it may sound. Along with experts' reviews providing more details on these decisions, and explaining tradeoffs properly.

Fluoride containing toothpaste is the main recommendation, even in places that fluoridate the water (which are the minority). There is not much to add to this apart from refining these guidelines. Eg in the EU where some countries fluoridate water, most don't, there is no huge debate about it overall. Most eu countries that fluoridated the water stopped doing it some point mostly because it was no longer needed in preventing cavities, and prob largely due to logistics/costs than possible risks.

Your second paragraph reflects my personal views on it, too. The "banning" is weird, esp since, according to the article, it comes from people that seem to advocate against use of fluoride in general in toothpastes etc. The discussion should be around best policies to prevent cavities etc, but it does not seem to be around that. I see nothing wrong with local communities deciding if they want to put fluoride or not in their water, based on their own opinions but also general situation. Maybe in some much poorer areas fluoridation of water could be beneficial until some other measures take place, for example.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#204

I initially dismissed it as the same category of stupid as anti-vax beliefs, but it turns out that there are a decent amount of good studies showing a link between fluoride in water and (slightly) lower IQ when pregnant mothers ingest the fluoride. Note that there is no significant effect after birth. The idea is to remove fluoride from water and advise pregnant women to use fluoride-free toothpaste. Everyone else ca…

I think that link is only there when the fluoride levels are extremely high. See https://parentdata.org/fluoride-drinking-water/ for a good overview of the data

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#205
post #154

Utah has naturally occurring fluoride in their water and some water systems its more than double(2.0mg/l) what they add to prevent dental issues. Why were they fluorinating their water? https://cascadefamily.com/images/WaterFluoridationLevelsUtah...

Ok, but then you just say, we have enough naturally occurring fluoride. Adding more is just a waste of money. Or, toothpaste has enough extra fluoride, adding it to water is just a waste of money. This is not that. This is the US health system being lead by a bunch of woo-woo people who don’t understand how research works.

The people leading the health system are highly credentialed. Moreover, highly credentialed people, in medicine as in all fields, frequently disagree on what studies show, how valid a study is, what it's flaws and limits are, how conclusive it is, and so forth. And the consensus has a long, time honored tradition of being wrong from time to time.

Ultimately, the woo woo people are the ones who rely on someone in a labcoat to tell them whether ingesting government approved (there's your first red flag) synthetic fluoride from industrial byproducts is "necessary".

If it's useful, brushing it onto your teeth and into your gums 56,000 times in your life is probably sufficient, particularly given that we don't know with absolute certainty beyond any shadow of a doubt that the industrial waste options are totally without health consequences. I'll literally just take care of my teeth and cross my fingers over listening to modern medical consensus on a range of topics where I simply trust intuition and common sense more.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#206
post #106
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 20% tips Is this real?

Yep. My favorite thing is when I am not even at a restaurant and I'm being asked to tip a retail worker making well above minimum wage. As a former bartender who made $2.65US an hour and relied on tips for my "paycheck" each week, seeing this new "tipping everyone" trend is like a slap in the face. Bottom line, if your business can't afford to pay its people a living wage, then it can't afford to operate.

Two of the most hilarious things I've seen are tips at self-serve kiosks, and tips where you carry the food to the person behind the counter. Tipping them for ringing up an item..

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can provide lots of stuff yourself if the state abandons the whole idea of public health. Of course, be prepared for your taxes and/or insurance going up to cover your neighbors who don't pay for the same preventative care.

Pretty much-was told by an insurance broker one of the biggest factors past history of weather and the obvious things (flooding possibility, dry trees) is my neighbors. Didn't get into specifics but I suspect drugs and gangs.

>one of the biggest factors

One of the biggest factors of what?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#208
post #154

Utah has naturally occurring fluoride in their water and some water systems its more than double(2.0mg/l) what they add to prevent dental issues. Why were they fluorinating their water? https://cascadefamily.com/images/WaterFluoridationLevelsUtah...

Most places in Utah already don't add flouride to water. So why pass a law to ban it?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#209

This is one of these US-specific polarised debates I find really bizarre, around some kind of issue that the rest of the world has by large solved but without any acknowledgement of this fact. Maybe the US should look into how other countries have solved it? It is completely bizarre witnessing both sides getting so polarised around a basically non-issue.

How has it been “solved?” There’s just tradeoffs.

There’s evidence that despite widespread availability of fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash, fluoridated drinking water improves dental outcomes at the population level.

There’s also evidence that at high levels (not the normal levels it is added at, but at higher levels which can happen on accident) fluoride may reduce IQ.

I’m ok with either trade off but the “solved” phrasing makes it sound like there is an obviously superior choice.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#210
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US rarely looks into how other countries solve problems. (i.e. Universal Healthcare, High Speed Trains and so), this is the sad part of "American Exceptionalism"

A less cynical framing is that the US is a much different culture from European countries, and is massively larger in scale. Depending on the problem, some of their solutions simply can't or don't apply.

You're not wrong in that our culture is different, but that cultural difference is chiefly a self fulfilling prophecy of "the government can't do it," promoted by billionaire owned media, so that those same billionaires can run for-profit industries like healthcare and transportation.

The cultural difference is that our rich people are too rich, our media is too centralized, and none of those in power want to enrich and empower the country, when they could enrich and empower themselves.

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