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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

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Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#201

Post by mashepp »

Gud wrote: post #179
alexey-salmin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a dif…

>They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a different kind of problem. I disagree with this statement. The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to.

> The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to.

So, because the greatest engineer according to your words excels at something. So it's easy for everybody to do the same?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#202

Post by consp »

teleforce wrote: post #154
alexey-salmin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a dif…

> The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there I'm not sure about your statement here after the wet timing belt inside engine debacle for many European cars engines including Renault that's still existed until today. It's a total disregards of the laws on material physics and chemistry [1], [2]. [1] Wet Belt in Oil Engines: Who Approved This and Why Is It Still Being Made [video]: https://w…

While all true people also do not service their cars and these must be serviced on a regular interval with non standard components. Still a stupid design though which should never have been out into production. Glad my car has a chain, even had one in the past with a wonky guide which made lots of noise but worked until the end without issues (write-off was not engine related but purely economical, expensive tires brakes etc).

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#203

Post by tpm »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #80
tpm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have lifelong customers, but those also don't live forever and can change their opinion, and if the carmakers don't adapt, they won't survive. For the last 19 years we have been buying Toyota, but I'm slowly starting to look for a new car and it has to be an EV and Toyota is currently very underwhelming in that regard in our market.

Meanwhile I bought a 2024 Toyota that gets 10mpg and I fucking love it.

Good for you, not so good for the climate, but we get our oil from Putin and I'd rather not to.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#204

Post by consp »

r00fus wrote: post #129
olyjohn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the big companies really have a commitment to parts delivery anymore, or are they following the same trend? Took my friend 9 months to get a part for his C8 Corvette when it got rear ended at 5mph. Tons of other GM owners have been waiting months to nearly a year for many common parts for repairs. Selling parts doesn't make these companies money, so why should they care? As long as they're making enough to sell th…

I will say a couple of things: * my Ford Focus EV had a very short lead time for parts because it was based on a platform (Focus) shared across many vehicles. Also repair cost was very low for a multi-car accident ($2k). * Similarly, when common tech is spread across many vehicles (Kia/Hyundai eGMP or GM Ultium) those components are often easier to acquire. Buying low-volume vehicles or from smaller manufacturers is…

Funny thing with Fords is you can pretty much swap parts between models even if they are not officially in the same platform. Lots of overlap. Got a sync unit from a transit for a fiesta, works fine after updating the settings to match the vehicle.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#205

Post by jesterson »

teruakohatu wrote: post #150
Dalewyn wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much this. Honda was all but begged by the Japanese government to bail Nissan out. Remember that the Japanese government had a role in taking out Renault and preventing a French takeover of Nissan, their political hand was already overstretched. The merger/buyout collapsed because Nissan is too proud to admit that they have failed and aren't in any position to be making demands. Also, this is a tangent but wit…

> Pretty much this. Honda was all but begged by the Japanese government to bail Nissan out. Remember that the Japanese government had a role in taking out Renault and preventing a French takeover of Nissan, their political hand was already overstretched. I know little/nothing about Japanese politics. How exactly does the Government of Japan apply pressure to a public company to merge with another failing public compa…

> How exactly does the Government of Japan apply pressure to a public company to merge with another failing public company?

Structure doesn't matter. Culturally government cooperates with companies through "asking" (or pressuring if you like) as opposed to western approach where companies can (and will) do as they please within law/regulatory frameworks. Opposite works as well - companies can ask government and pretty much expect result.

Most of it stems from collective culture and family values and taken as something quite important.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#206

Post by lmm »

gottorf wrote: post #151
kridsdale1 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re over regulated. All the geography and materials in the world. They aren’t building because they can’t do it affordably. My friends in Vancouver had a vacant lot in a prime area and money. They had to wait for three years to be approved to start.

This seems to be a problem especially concentrated in the Anglosphere. Britain[0], Canada, Australia, and to a lesser degree in the US due to its libertarian streak. I wonder why that's the case? [0]: https://ukfoundations.co/

It's happening in almost every developed country. Everyone introduced similar planning/zoning regimes following the post-WWII rebuilding (possibly as an overcorrection to unpleasant prefab buildings), and 70 years down the line they're paying the price.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#207

Post by raverbashing »

ty6853 wrote: post #144
thuddrff567gg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

Ghosn was trained as an engineer at École des Mines de Paris after a humble background in the 3rd world including continual sickness from unsanitary waterwater. He worked from the bottom up in R&D at Michelin and did the impossible turning it around during hyperinflation period in Brazil. By all estimations he's a genius with as good of chops as anyone could ask for his responsibilities, with a unique set of citizens…

He's certainly known for thinking outside the box. (but not always ;) )

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#208

Post by alecco »

bobthepanda wrote: post #96
alecco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an important variable. But a more realistic picture needs to factor in: 1. median IQ 2. skills 3. future unfunded liabilities (welfare, pensions, public health, etc) China has demographics collapse like the West but they have high median IQ, high skills, and almost no unfunded liabilities. Meanwhile, Western IQ and skills are dropping like a stone and they have trillions in unfunded liabilities. And any attempt…

I think this really depends on how you define unfunded liabilities. China, for example, has mostly not established liabilities because the social systems for retiring are a joke. People instead save personally and shovel those savings into real estate, but the real estate market is collapsing/collapsed because it turns out all that retirement saving driving up the median-house to median-income ratio to 40+x was not s…

Good point.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#209

Post by Gud »

mashepp wrote: post #201
Gud wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a different kind of problem. I disagree with this statement. The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to.

> The greatest engineer, scientist and inventor of all time, Stanford Ovshinsky, absolutely had no problem excelling in any field he put his mind to. So, because the greatest engineer according to your words excels at something. So it's easy for everybody to do the same?

”the most competent”.

Possibly there was a smarter mechanical engineer than Mr. Ovshinsky, it would be hard for anyone to argue he wasn’t in the top 0.1% in his field(s).

Why a top engineer in the field of making petrol powered cars shouldn’t be able to quickly learn a “new field”, using quotation marks here because electric cars have been around for >100 years, is beyond my understanding.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#210

Post by adev_ »

The Carlos Ghosn story is really one of the biggest cliffhanger in automotive history.

When Ghosn got arrested, the Alliance Renault-Nissan was shredded to pieces. Many in Europe (including myself) were betting on a Nissan survival and a quick death of Renault.

Renault that was the sick dog of the French automotive industry for decades. Mainly due to bad business decisions and a lot of debt dating from before the arrival of Carlos Ghosn. With Ghosn in exile and no clear successor: there were very little optimism in Europe about the survival of Renault.

But ironically: that could not be farther from the Truth.

Renault get away with a pretty well executed electrification. It is now hyped and healthy.

Several models have been acclaimed by critics [1] and are even qualified as 'sexy' by the younger generation. It also sells well: The Megan EV sells well, so does the R5 and the Scenic. Renault even outsells Stellantis in Europe[2]: Something that did not happen for decades.

And near to that Nissan, the big one in the story, seems to go from bad to worst.

Nissan's stocks are going straight to the ground and with pretty worrying financial status. Nissan seems stucked with a conservative Japanese high level management unable to understand nor execute the changes the brand need. They completely miss the electrification: The leaf is outdated, the Ariya arrived late and full of problems[3]. And the rest of the product ranges do not sell well at all outside of Japan.

Nissan need urgently help, and pretty much nobody want to work with them in Japan.

This is again one of this twist of fate that only the automotive world is able to provide.

[1]: https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/renault/megane-e-tech-el...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/europe...

[3]: https://www.ariyaforums.com/threads/so-many-issues-with-less...

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