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Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

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Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#201

Post by int_19h »

vkou wrote: post #188
opwieurposiu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China creates a superbug via GOF research. Accidently releases it from the lab. Shuts down its own economy. Puts the majority of it's citizens on house arrest, and that is "largely successful"? Please send me the AliExpress link to whatever it is you are smoking, it must be some good shit. I think the real lesson here is that if you enough government power, there is no need to be competent. The feedback loop is destr…

> China creates a superbug via GOF research In 2024, this isn't fact, it's just baseless conspiracy. All evidence has ended up pointing to bush meat contamination.

In 2024, zoonotic origin is considered more probable, but it is by no means a "baseless conspiracy" to believe otherwise.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#202

Post by Airodonack »

bugglebeetle wrote: post #193
kamarg wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you have something against the flyover states. I'm sure there's more shoddily constructed condos in Florida/California/New York per capita than there is in the Midwest. Same goes for cheap high calorie food. Of course, the same can probably be said about the large population centers in China too. More people concentrated in one area tends to mean more poverty in that area and all the things that come wit…

I don’t have anything against them. I was born and raised in one. I just find it ironic that someone would fail to see this parallel.

The parallel is that there are rich and poor? It is unscrupulous to argue in imprecise, binary terms while ignoring the difference in scale. People in flyover states are not making only $400/mo or even occupying that same societal equivalent of China in America.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#203

Post by int_19h »

pmarreck wrote: post #38
futureshock wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they do it, it’s “censorship.” When we do it it’s “safety.” From a technical standpoint it’s the same. Don’t say certain things, respond to certain questions with refusals or with certain answers.

Yes, but there should be a difference between providing answers about provably dangerous things and providing provably false answers for political reasons. For example if there is a Russian LLM that refuses to answer any questions about homosexuality while also saying it's wrong, that's demonstrably false from an empirical basis. But the western LLM's are also doing this latter type of thing already. If you ask any o…

> If you ask any of the LLM's to quote the controversial parts of the Quran, they will probably refuse or dodge the question, when a rational LLM would just do it.

Have you actually tried?

https://chatgpt.com/share/67747021-3ac8-800e-bc5d-f4a1acf903...

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#204

Post by int_19h »

logicchains wrote: post #56
nbroyal wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious to hear more about the grave censorship that ChatGPT and Claude are under. Specifically where non-western models are not.

If you ask them for scientific evidence on the link between race and IQ (or lack thereof).

I wouldn't exactly call this censorship. I even got a list of articles from it:

https://chatgpt.com/share/67747121-09e8-800e-892a-dee466e8fe...

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#205

Post by eunos »

kayewiggin wrote: post #192
jurli wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally happening lol. When you were a kid China was making shoes and their GDP is 10% of the US. Now they're making drones / evs / high end electornics and it's 80%. This is why people's perception is so unreliable because it's impossible to notice things when they happen over a lifetime

> making drones / evs / high end electornics China does have a current advantage on lithium battery and rare earth materials - dumb technologies that US and allies can replicate fairly quickly, less than a year. EUV and 3nm and below on the other hand, will take decades, since it involves a number of different and deep technologies controlled by dozens of companies. China has thrown $150B on it since 2014, and has on…

> dumb technologies that US and allies can replicate fairly quickly

Laugh in Northvolt

> $150B on it since 2014, and has only come up with low yield/unprofitable 7nm via existing DUV machines

Considering that there are less than 5 countries on Earth that can fab 7nm semiconductors, that aint bad.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#206

Post by int_19h »

logicchains wrote: post #15
nsoonhui wrote: post #13

I find that the gushing around deepseek is fascinating to watch. To me there are a few structural and fundamental reasons why deepseek can never outperform other models by a wide margin. On par maybe--as we reach the diminishing returns with our investment in the models, but not win by a wide margin. 1. The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages, eventually, if we ever…

>I want to know exactly what makes everyone thinks that deepseek totally owns the LLM space? It achieved competitive performance to the competition at literally 10x less cost of production (training). That's an incredible achievement in any industry, especially given they have such a small team relative to competitors. Their API is 20-50x cheaper than the competitors, and not because they're burning cash by charging…

It should be noted that DeepSeek routinely claims to be a "language model trained by OpenAI", so it's pretty clear that it wasn't trained at 10x less cost from scratch, but rather on synthetic output generated by ChatGPT.

Not to point a finger at DeepSeek specifically; this is generally the case for best open source models right now. The best LLaMA finetunes tend to also use ChatGPT-generated synthetic datasets a lot.

Either way, it's unclear what the real cost is when you factor that in.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#207

Post by eunos »

kayewiggin wrote: post #133
solaarphunk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Economic superpower perhaps - just take a look at their relative GDP over time.

China has 900M people making less than $400/month, and 600M people making less than $100/month. relative GDP is a joke, go to China to see what most of them are eating (hint: it's unsafe food filled with chemicals, or its mostly carbs) and where these people are living (hint: it's shoddy constructed condos or run down farm houses)

> China has 900M people making less than $400/month

Most of these folks are illiterate oldies that would pass away in a few years anyway.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#208

Post by dboreham »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #200
kayewiggin wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making drones / evs / high end electornics China does have a current advantage on lithium battery and rare earth materials - dumb technologies that US and allies can replicate fairly quickly, less than a year. EUV and 3nm and below on the other hand, will take decades, since it involves a number of different and deep technologies controlled by dozens of companies. China has thrown $150B on it since 2014, and has on…

So why aren't US and allies demonstrably replicating EVs (and other kinds of green technology) quickly? Tesla is still pretty much the only serious player. Why are CEOs of major western carmakers painting a very different picture than what you describe here? Where are the serious EU/US battery makers that are globally competitive? It looks to me like the EU has chosen the worst of all options: put up tarriff barriers…

Western consumers don't want to buy EVs (mostly).

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#209

Post by eunos »

nsoonhui wrote: post #13

I find that the gushing around deepseek is fascinating to watch. To me there are a few structural and fundamental reasons why deepseek can never outperform other models by a wide margin. On par maybe--as we reach the diminishing returns with our investment in the models, but not win by a wide margin. 1. The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages, eventually, if we ever…

> 1. The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages, eventually, if we ever get to that.

Chinese chips will come soon, I heard on DeepSeek Huawei Ascend chips are already on part of inference.

> 2. China censorship which limits the deepseek data ingestion and output, to some degree.

There are things that deepseek doesnt censor but Claude does censor. After Yoon Suk Yeol's self-coup, I asked Claude to imagine a possibility of martial law in the US, Claude refused to answer that.

> 3. Most importantly, deepseek is open source, which means that the other models are free to copy whatever secret source it has, eg: Whatever architecture that purportedly use less compute can easily be copied.

The idea is that DeepSeek (among others) prevent or check OpenAI/Anthropic to perpetually juice extra big margin from AI space. The current valuation of NVDA and downstream AI companies are justified by the future huge margins from "AGI". Without that the the price crash.

Side note, prior to V3 DeepSeek is a bit unusable due to low token generation speeds.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#210

Post by int_19h »

emporas wrote: post #88

Not personally surprised that a MoE model performs so well. I used Mixtral a lot for coding Rust, and it had qualities no other model had except GPT 3.5 and later Claude Sonet. The funny thing is Mixtral was based on Llama 2 which was not trained on code that much. DeepSeek v3: 671B parameters on total, and 37B activated sounds very good even though impossible to run locally. Question if some people happen to know: F…

Mistral LMs are not LLaMA derivatives.
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