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Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

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Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#201

Post by drostie »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #197
swa14 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If a male were to sexually harass a female, it would not be sexism because he is not giving males special preference over females Well, seeing how he's not sexually harassing the males I'd say there's a noted difference in "special preference". Anyway, I'd argue that sexism is almost inherent to any sexual harassment, as the male put himself in a position of power/dominance based on little more than gender differenc…

Not that I agree with the other person but by your logic everyone (who is not bi-sexual) practices sexism because they have a "special preference" to relationships with one gender over another. If the OP of the article had all those same things done to her (ass grabbing, pillow fight invitations, etc) by gay women, would that still be considered "sexism" or just sexual harassment? People sometimes forget that sexual…

I can't hammer this home enough: it's institutional, the sexism that's going on here. That is, the pillow-fight invitation is not by itself sexism; the sexism is that we live in a world where a man might consider it acceptable to burst into a conversation without prompting and ask a woman to his room for a private pillowfight party, for the sexual gratification of onlooking men. It's not the act, it's the environment which makes the act possible, and the environment which the act fosters, which constitute the sexism. In practice we can therefore label the act itself as 'sexist' -- but the criticism that the act 'is not literally sexist' or what have you deeply misses the point.

If this had been done by gay women, the problem would still be that those gay women somehow felt entitled to make such a request of women. The problem is that a woman was, purely due to her sex, "lowered beneath" a baseline of human decency, if you wish. There might be a legitimate question of "what if we lowered the baseline?" but there is no legitimate question of "what if the person who lowered her was a woman?"

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#202

Post by jack-r-abbit »

drostie wrote: post #201
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I agree with the other person but by your logic everyone (who is not bi-sexual) practices sexism because they have a "special preference" to relationships with one gender over another. If the OP of the article had all those same things done to her (ass grabbing, pillow fight invitations, etc) by gay women, would that still be considered "sexism" or just sexual harassment? People sometimes forget that sexual…

I can't hammer this home enough: it's institutional , the sexism that's going on here. That is, the pillow-fight invitation is not by itself sexism; the sexism is that we live in a world where a man might consider it acceptable to burst into a conversation without prompting and ask a woman to his room for a private pillowfight party, for the sexual gratification of onlooking men. It's not the act, it's the environmen…

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act of inviting a woman to a pillow fight is sexism regardless of the gender of the requester. If so then we can agree that the act is equally . We may disagree on what that label is. If you label it sexism, that is your choice. I would call that rude or aggressively forward.

However, if you are thinking that it is only sexism if the requester is a male, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree completely because I am not going to buy into such gender based biases.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#203

Post by [deleted] »

readme wrote: post #138

I tend to believe that women initiate encounters with men with unconscious non-verbal signals. A man who is able to read these signals will have a good success rate in meeting new women. A man who cannot will be pegged as a "creeper". I think it's not only true in real life, but on dating sites as well. Women receive so many messages from men that you are probably just going to get buried in all the noise if you send…

[deleted]

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#204

Post by mistermann »

token_female wrote: post #70
mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

> There is something about IT that either appeals especially to males, or males are particularly skilled at. I have no idea why. Really? You have no idea? You don't think it might possibly have something to do with sexism in society and in IT culture? From early childhood, girls are taught that the ought to be interested in princesses, dolls, and playing house, while boys are taught that they ought to be interested i…

What an enormous chip you have on your shoulder. Oh how terrible it must be going through life with men constantly holding you down.

Or how about this....for a year, stop thinking of yourself as a victim, and see if you notice a difference in life.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#205

Post by mistermann »

token_female wrote: post #70
mistermann wrote: post #18

Prediction: The sexism in IT problem will never end. Here's my hypothesis: 1. Women and men are different. We see this played out all around us, all the time, both sides happily make and laugh at jokes about it, and no one has a problem acknowledging this fact during discussion of other topics, but when certain subjects are being discussed, these very same people will assure you, with total sincerity, that there is n…

> There is something about IT that either appeals especially to males, or males are particularly skilled at. I have no idea why. Really? You have no idea? You don't think it might possibly have something to do with sexism in society and in IT culture? From early childhood, girls are taught that the ought to be interested in princesses, dolls, and playing house, while boys are taught that they ought to be interested i…

What an enormous chip you have on your shoulder. Oh how terrible it must be going through life with men constantly holding you down.

Or how about this....for a year, stop thinking of yourself as a victim, and see if you notice a difference in life.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#206

Post by civilian »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #172
derleth wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men have to approach women, or they don't laid. Hopefully, a reduction of sexism in our society will also change things like this. A longish article on the general subject of how sexism hurts men, too: http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_abou...

I'd up vote you 100 times if I could. I am quite unsuccessful with women, but the women friends I have that have tried to give me advice tell me the same thing. It is my job to make the first move, plan a date and pay. I have never once got any useful advice on how to tell if a girl is actually interested though. Apparently I am supposed to potentially harass women until I get lucky!? I don't know. I don't think it i…

nods I'm with you, brother. This quote from Radiohead kind of comforts me, because I know it's a common problem that a lot of guys see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(Radiohead_song)#Composit...

> According to Yorke, "Creep" tells the tale of an inebriated man who tries to get the attention of a woman to whom he is attracted by following her around. In the end, he lacks the self-confidence to face her and feels he subconsciously is her. When asked about "Creep" in 1993, Yorke said, "I have a real problem being a man in the '90s... Any man with any sensitivity or conscience toward the opposite sex would have a problem. To actually assert yourself in a masculine way without looking like you're in a hard-rock band is a very difficult thing to do... "

And this really isn't limited to Defcon. I've gone to raves and there are guys going around the crowd asking "wanna have sex?" to every chick they see. They'll learn soon enough that... that doesn't work, and it's probably inappropriate. Even for a rave.

I don't think anyone really wants to leave their comfort zone. They want to feel safe, and approaching someone else makes them feel unsafe. Both sexes are going to do that, so, maybe it's up to us (men) to be the bigger party and bridge the gap. Take the discomfort, so that the women don't have to. It sucks, it's annoying, and by their unaction and our willingness for auction we are reenforcing gender stereotypes, but at least we can meet people that way.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#207

Post by drostie »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #202
drostie wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't hammer this home enough: it's institutional , the sexism that's going on here. That is, the pillow-fight invitation is not by itself sexism; the sexism is that we live in a world where a man might consider it acceptable to burst into a conversation without prompting and ask a woman to his room for a private pillowfight party, for the sexual gratification of onlooking men. It's not the act, it's the environmen…

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act of inviting a woman to a pillow fight is sexism regardless of the gender of the requester. If so then we can agree that the act is equally . We may disagree on what that label is. If you label it sexism, that is your choice. I would call that rude or aggressively forward. However, if you are thinking that it is only sexism if the requester is a male, then I t…

I'm not sure you do understand. The point is rather, "yes, it is rude and aggressively forward. Added onto that, the fact that someone felt free to do it, is sexism. And, the global environment that it creates is also sexism."

It is a sexist request in the sense that it was constructed by, and constructs, sexism. It does not directly oppress anyone, that is true -- but that is irrelevant, because that isn't the only mechanism of sexism (and isn't even the dominant mechanism).

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#208

Post by cperciva »

DanBC wrote: post #163
cperciva wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Licking a woman's shoulder, because she is a woman, is clearly a sexist act. No; it's sexual harassment and assault, but it's not sexist . Sexism would be if someone said "you're female, therefore you want to have your shoulder licked".

It is sexist because the assumption made is "you're female, and thus I can lick your shoulder and you will not mind, and if you do mind it's your own fault for being a woman in this place with lonely men". Unless you're seriously trying to tell me that there are men walking around defcon licking the shoulders of other men as a clumsy come on.

I don't think that assumption was being made. It seems more likely to me that the culprits don't care if the victim minds having her shoulder licked -- most likely, didn't even think about it.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#209

Post by mkaltenecker »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #196
mkaltenecker wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did not understand me. Using “gay” as a positive term isn’t a problem. “He came out first as a gay footballer” is a perfectly alright sentence. Using ”gay” (or “retarded”) as an insult is where the problem lies (with “retarded” the additional problem is that no one uses it as a positive term – and since it’s so overwhelmingly used negatively, using it neutrally isn’t really possible). When someone tells you he li…

> with “retarded” the additional problem is that no one uses it as a positive term Not true. In the automotive world "retarded" is used quite often in regards to your distributor, vacuum and timing. By adjusting things, your timing can be advanced or retarded. It is not a negative thing. It is simply how engines are tuned. http://georgiajag.com/Documents/Vacuum%20Advance%20versus%20...

Exception accepted! I don’t think anyone has a problem with that kind of use. I certainly don’t.

So, yes, sometimes “retarded“ can be a neutral term.

Re: Sexism red/yellow cards at Defcon

#210

Post by jack-r-abbit »

drostie wrote: post #207
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act of inviting a woman to a pillow fight is sexism regardless of the gender of the requester. If so then we can agree that the act is equally . We may disagree on what that label is. If you label it sexism, that is your choice. I would call that rude or aggressively forward. However, if you are thinking that it is only sexism if the requester is a male, then I t…

I'm not sure you do understand. The point is rather, "yes, it is rude and aggressively forward. Added onto that, the fact that someone felt free to do it, is sexism. And, the global environment that it creates is also sexism." It is a sexist request in the sense that it was constructed by, and constructs, sexism. It does not directly oppress anyone, that is true -- but that is irrelevant, because that isn't the only…

As long as we are agreeing that it is regardless of who does it, I really don't care what you label it. That was my point. You can believe it is sexism. I will believe it is not. I don't have to believe it is sexism to think the behavior is bad. It is bad regardless. However, I believe labeling it as sexism is overly harsh due to what that label implies. I don't believe that label is deserved.
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