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Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

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201–210 of 216 posts

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#201
post #7

This is great from a practical standpoint (being able to predict weather), but does it actually improve our understanding of the weather, or WHY those predictions are better? That is my issue with some of these AI advances. With these, we won't have actually gotten better at understanding the weather patterns, since it's all just a bunch of weights which nobody really understands.

I’m by no means an expert in weather forecasting, but I have some familiarity with the methods. My understanding is that non-“AI” weather models basically subdivide the atmosphere into a 3d grid of cells that are on the order of hundreds to thousands of meters in each dimension, treat each cell as atomic/homogeneous at a given point in time, and then advance the relevant differential equations deterministically to fo…

This is true for many but not all weather models.

GFS and IFS are both medium-range global models in the class Google is targeting. These models are spectral models, meaning they pivot the input spatial grid into the frequency domain, carry out weather computations in the frequency domain, and pivot back to provide output grids.

The intuition here is that, at global scale over many days, the primary dynamics are waves doing what waves do. Representing state in terms of waves reduces the accumulation of numerical errors. On the other hand, this only works on spheroids and it comes at the expense of greatly complicating local interactions, so the use of spectral methods for NWP is far from universal.

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#202

I'm friends with a meteorologist and the 15+ day forecast is the bane of their existence because you can't accurately forecast beyond a week so I would love to know how they are measuring accuracy. The article doesn't say and I know the paper is going to go over my head.

> you can't accurately forecast beyond a week Totally wrong. You cannot generalize such a statement because it depends on the micro and macro weather conditions. A very stable situation makes it very easy to forecast one week and beyond. On the other hand, there can be situations where you cannot accurately predict the next 12 hours (e.g. cold air pool).

> Totally wrong. You cannot generalize such a statement because it depends on the micro and macro weather conditions. A very stable situation makes it very easy to forecast one week and beyond. On the other hand, there can be situations where you cannot accurately predict the next 12 hours (e.g. cold air pool).

And that is exactly where these AI models will break down. They will "shine" (or fool us) with how well they predict the stable situations, and will produce utter rubbish when the high, turbulent and dynamic weather fronts make prediction difficult.

But of course, if your weather is "stable" 80% of the time, you can use those shiny examples to sell your tool, and count on user forgetfulness to get away with the 20% of nonsense predicted the rest of the time.

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#203
post #194

Turns out the Google AI's 15-day forecasts are for the weather in Mountain View. Which I can forecast 15 days out, too.

Here's the paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08252-9 It was trained on global data, and makes global forecasts.

Wait, we're actually reading the article now instead of making jokes?

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#204
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08252-9 It was trained on global data, and makes global forecasts.

Wait, we're actually reading the article now instead of making jokes?

Unfortunately I think a lot of people seem to have taken Ankaios' joke as an actual claim about the research.

(ex: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42388734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42387291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42385397)

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#205
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, most people can predict weather in the dessert. But why do you claim this is what happened here? Or was it a joke? Because people took it serious. Neither the article, nor the linked paper state that. But they have all the details on precision and condition. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08252-9

It was a joke about how silly valley based companies will claim the moon and back and then design a car that doesn’t know dumping snow in the boot is bad.

The work was done by DeepMind, which is in the UK. Weather in the UK is quite variable and difficult to predict (which is why the English are always talking about it).

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#206
post #189
post #24

I really wonder if, like the weather, we should see new financial prediction models, understanding that there is randomness but also patterns.

I see a fundamental issue issue from systems theory here, but do note that I'm by no means an expert at that, just had a bachelor course covering it together with control theory. The issue is that you would train a model on historical data, then you would use the model's predictions to make financial decisions. But, the moment you are using those predictions, you modified the system the model learned to predict. Now,…

Yes, it is well studied that markets are not, in general, predictable but that doesn't mean that you cannot gain an advantage if you can extract some extra meaning, even a tiny one, that is what hedge funds, and other kind of sophisticated trading firms actually do. Here we are saying that they have an extra pattern recognition tool that they can use with a probability rate.

Re: Google says AI weather model masters 15-day forecast

#207
post #156

The catch: the model is predicting the past: >> But DeepMind said GenCast surpassed the precision of the center's forecasts in more than 97 percent of the 1,320 real-world scenarios from 2019 which they were both tested on.

Yes, but it was trained on 2018 data and earlier.

After 2019. That's "the past" they predicted.

Here's a slightly longer answer. When training machine learning models it's the done thing to test them on held-out data, and use the error on the held-out test data to estimate the accuracy of a model on truly unseen data that we really don't have- such as observations that are still in the future, like the weather tomorrow (as in 12/12/24) [1].

The problem is that held-out test data is not really unseen and when a model doesn't perform very well on it, it is common to tweak the model, tweak hyperparameters, tweak initialisation etc etc, until the model performs well on the held-out test data [2]; which ends up optimising the model on the held-out test data and therefore destroying any ability to estimate the accuracy of the model when predicting truly unseen data [3].

You can check Deepmind's paper and see if you can find where in the description of their methodology they explain what they did to mitigate this effect. You won't find it.

This is enough of a problem when the model is, say, an image classifier, but when it's a model that's supposed to predict the weather 15 days from now, the best you can say when you look at the results on held-out test data is: the model is doing fine when predicting the weather we had in the past.

____________

[1] Yes, that's why we test models on held-out data. Not so we can brag about their "accuracy", or so we can put a little leaderboard in our papers (a little table with all the datasets on one side, all the systems on the other side, and all our entries in bold or else we don't submit the paper) and brag about that. We're trying to estimate generlisation error.

[2] "The first iteration of my model cost hundreds of man-hours and thousands of dollars to code and train but if it doesn't perform well on the first try on my held-out test data I'm going to scrap it and start all over again from scratch".

Yeah. Right.

[3] Even worse: everyone splits their experimental dataset to 80/20% partitions, 80% for training and 20% for testing, and that already screws over the accuracy of any error estimates. Not only we're predicting 20% of our data from 80% of it, but we're predicting a tiny amount of data in absolute terms, compared to the true distribution.

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