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The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

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Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#201

Post by SpecialistK »

mike50 wrote: post #167
SpecialistK wrote: post #65

I only speak English, but I have found and theorized that one's ability to learn and retain a L2 is heavily affected by your society's "need" to communicate outside of the national language. This article largely reinforces that theory. If people do not have a need to learn another language, it becomes an uphill battle. People in Finland report higher levels of English competency than people in France (despite French…

French is widely spoken throughout the world. If you speak French you can travel to Canada, the Caribbean, Africa and parts of South America without needing to speak another language. Also French is an official language in Belgium, Switzerland and Luxembourg as well as being widely spoken and taught as a second language in contentental Europe. Japan is spoken mostly in Japan and expat communities.

You're right that the simile starts falling apart when you look at it deeper, but on the whole I think it does provide a reasonable example: when you can experience international travel and business opportunities in your mother tongue it is less appealing and more difficult to learn another language. And this is what we see from French-speakers vs Finnish-speakers. Yes, French is much more global than Japanese is, but the end result is the same: if you speak French or Japanese, there are many more economic, cultural, and travel opportunities available without needing to learn a L2 than if you speak Finnish or Dutch or Hungarian. That's part of speaking a language with 100+ million speakers compared to 5 million speakers.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#202

Post by MichaelZuo »

lmm wrote: post #196
MichaelZuo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why can't Japanese companies hire the genuinely bilingual as employees/consultants/etc.?

The usual reasons organisations find it impossible to do things: inability to maintain incentive alignment within the company, manifesting as unwillingness to reward genuine bilingualism with enough money/status to incentivise it.

Right, so it’s not important enough for the decision makers, in relative terms, compared to all the other priorities and goals they have.

Like all the other potentialities not realized an organization can have…

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#203

Post by MichaelZuo »

autumnstwilight wrote: post #194
MichaelZuo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why can't Japanese companies hire the genuinely bilingual as employees/consultants/etc.?

They can and do, but struggle with the following problems: - Assessing English proficiency. It's hard to do if you can't speak English yourself, and so they tend to fall back on numeric measures like test scores (which someone who has grown up overseas and speaks English at a native level might not bother to take, and someone who has grinded for a test might pass while having mediocre communication ability). - Paying…

Genuinely bilingual people, if they primarily come from the elite strata of Japanese society as the parent alleges, are not coming in as entry level employees, or even as middle management, but as upper management or consultants to upper management.

I’ve never heard of there being a shortage of vice presidents or managing directors before in any mid-size or larger company.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#204

Post by germandiago »

expatjapan121 wrote: post #200
germandiago wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I tell you tgis it is because I have japanese friends who live outside of Japan, who are more open than the average and it is them who tell me: a japanese will not tell you what they are thinking and will not project "negativity" on you. Said in another way: they will just tell you the positive stuff and will discard negative things. Why? Because for them "projecting negativity" is something plain bad and wrong. T…

> try to make yourself the person in a group surrounded by japanese. I don't need to try to do this, close friendships with Japanese people and integration in social circles where I'm the only non-Japanese has not been hard. The strategy is just not to have your own preconception of outsiderness. I see many that complain about difficulty integrating similar to your comments, blaming it on something about the Japanese…

I am still pretty sure that, as an outsider, they will just have certain level of integration for you and will leave you apart for other matters.

Not bc they are bad. They are just japanese. It is their way.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#205

Post by germandiago »

ranger_danger wrote: post #164
tokinonagare wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please stop telling people "they will never be Japanese" since it's blatantly wrong. You are wrong here. You will indeed never be Japanese if you haven't both 2 ethnic Japanese parents and raised in Japanese (second-generation raised abroad, for instance in South American are out). You can't rewrite all your DNA and go back in time to have a Japanese education in Japan. The real issue is why caring so much about "b…

> You are wrong here. You will indeed never be Japanese I think you are assuming they share the same definition of "Japanese" as you. Even the Japanese government does not agree with your definition.

I am not tqlking even about nationality but the fact of having access to 100% the same activities, circles, invitations from friends, friendship and so on.

I am not talking in formal terms indeed.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#206

Post by famahar »

germandiago wrote: post #182
famahar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strong need to be accepted by a whole country is something I see mentioned a lot by a particular group of people that have never really been "othered" in their life. Coming to Japan is quite a shock for them because they experience being a minority for the first time in their lives. I was born in Canada and have dealt with micro-aggresions and blatant racism my whole life there. Living in Japan I can say I feel…

We were talking about integration. If you are happy more or less ghettoing yourself that is right. But we were talking about being accepted. It os really difficult to be accepted in japanese circles as one more. But it is not the case, for example, in Spain in comparison. I was not talking about having the apprpval of others. I do not really care. But in order to get integrated there are cultures that are really flex…

All it takes is speaking the language fluently. Hard but this mystery behind integration isn't complex. So much of the culture is expressed through language. Sound native and you will be treated as native (for better and worse)

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#207

Post by cedws »

germandiago wrote: post #88
ekusiadadus wrote: post #86

I'm Japanese. Speaking English in Japan is very challenging. All my friends and family speak Japanese, and everything from social media to news is completely accessible in Japanese. I'm an entrepreneur, and I use English when talking with international clients and overseas VCs. However, I lack confidence, and the communication tends to remain superficial, making it difficult to effectively do business internationally…

I have been a couple of times in Japan, have some Japanese friends here in Vietnam, where I live. I am spanish. In my humble opinion, japanese society is very kind and well-behaved, but, if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I mean, there is much less difference between foreign…

>And anyway, you will never be a japanese

Well, yes, if you weren't born in Japan or born to Japanese parents, you will never be Japanese. And isn't that fine? I don't understand why somebody who has immigrated to a foreign country must be accepted like a native. Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences?

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#208

Post by germandiago »

famahar wrote: post #206
germandiago wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were talking about integration. If you are happy more or less ghettoing yourself that is right. But we were talking about being accepted. It os really difficult to be accepted in japanese circles as one more. But it is not the case, for example, in Spain in comparison. I was not talking about having the apprpval of others. I do not really care. But in order to get integrated there are cultures that are really flex…

All it takes is speaking the language fluently. Hard but this mystery behind integration isn't complex. So much of the culture is expressed through language. Sound native and you will be treated as native (for better and worse)

I really believe it is not the case. It would go a long way but it is not enough. The ethnicity is also important.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#209

Post by watwut »

cedws wrote: post #207
germandiago wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a couple of times in Japan, have some Japanese friends here in Vietnam, where I live. I am spanish. In my humble opinion, japanese society is very kind and well-behaved, but, if you cannot speak japanese and you live in one more-or-less big city, according to all the feedback I got, then, you are basically out. And anyway, you will never be a japanese. I mean, there is much less difference between foreign…

>And anyway, you will never be a japanese Well, yes, if you weren't born in Japan or born to Japanese parents, you will never be Japanese. And isn't that fine? I don't understand why somebody who has immigrated to a foreign country must be accepted like a native. Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences?

> Why can't one just peacefully integrate the best they can and accept their differences?

Their complaint is that they want to integrate entirely and can not. They do not want to be different, they want to be the same. They want their kids to be treated the same. And the claim is, regardless of how well you integrate, how well you speak you will not be fully integrated.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#210

Post by busterarm »

famahar wrote: post #206
germandiago wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were talking about integration. If you are happy more or less ghettoing yourself that is right. But we were talking about being accepted. It os really difficult to be accepted in japanese circles as one more. But it is not the case, for example, in Spain in comparison. I was not talking about having the apprpval of others. I do not really care. But in order to get integrated there are cultures that are really flex…

All it takes is speaking the language fluently. Hard but this mystery behind integration isn't complex. So much of the culture is expressed through language. Sound native and you will be treated as native (for better and worse)

It's rare but you will still occasionally be denied services in restaurant regardless of how well you speak the language.

Or even if you speak to people in Japanese they will try to speak to you in English.

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