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Jaywalking legalized in New York City

theguardian.com

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Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#201

Post by maxwellg »

jklinger410 wrote: post #182
sehugg wrote: post #161

Good riddance. Crosswalks at intersections are nearly obsolete due to the thick A-pillars in modern cars. I would rather have mid-block crosswalks with warning lights and traffic calming devices.

> Crosswalks at intersections are nearly obsolete due to the thick A-pillars in modern cars. What?

A-pillars are the pillars of a car that support the windshield and the front of the roof. They've gotten bigger in recent years - which reduces the visibility of pedestrians, cyclists, and other cars. Drivers can't see through pillars. Big pillars are safer for the driver in case of a collision or a rollover, but paradoxically also makes that car more dangerous for everyone else on the road. I don't think they make crosswalks obsolete, but crossing the road is more dangerous today than it was 50 years ago.

https://chi.streetsblog.org/2022/06/08/pickups-suvs-are-driv....

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#202

Post by consteval »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #6
zjp wrote: post #5

I kind of wonder now whether that was the most broken law in history.

Asking pedestrians to cross streets where cars are stopped and they are mostly protected? How is that broken?

Crosswalks are typically at intersections - this is NOT where pedestrians are most protected. Often, it's safer to cross in the middle of the road, particularly if it's one way.

When you're at an intersection, there's cars coming from many directions. In addition, from the crosswalks I've seen they don't even stop turning cars - the turning cars have to be looking and stop themselves.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#203

Post by fooker »

elif wrote: post #153
standardUser wrote: post #108

First, let's not forget that jaywalking is one of those "crimes" that is used as a pretense by police to harass people, usually young people and people of color. Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong. The goal should be smooth movement for all. Third, just because someone else is jaywalking do…

Yea the herd mentality is why jaywalking is unethical. I've witnessed someone try to cross early, triggering literally ~20 people to follow, only for the light to change and everyone collectively realized they had no right of way and stepped back. It's easy to see how this could result in tragedy. Germany, Japan, there is strict social compliance so it feels right anyway.

> Germany, Japan, there is strict social compliance

There is quite a bit of historical evidence for this being really bad for society.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#204

Post by consteval »

echoangle wrote: post #26
reedf1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted you've misinterpreted the posters point - but I will respond to your perception of his point (which I agree with). You could easily imagine a world where pedestrians have the right of way on the streets, and cars "request access to the road" in a similar way that pedestrians do. Actually, if this is not easy for you to imagine - it suggests enormous internal bias.

It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over. Pedestrians are more nimble than cars, so it kind of makes sense that cars have the right of way. As far as I know, large container ships have right of way over small vessels for the same reason.

It's NYC, you're not driving over 30 anyway.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#205

Post by Schiendelman »

lysace wrote: post #192
jmugan wrote: post #142

I remember visiting California in the 1990s and was amazed to see my California friends waiting patiently at the light, looking at me like I was uncivilized because I just crossed the street whenever it was safe.

Current day Sweden: People cross tend to cross the street whenever it feels safe, unless there's some mom/dad with young kids in tow nearby. Then it's polite to wait for the light to turn green. We often have very little traffic on our streets though, and they are often not very wide. It's technically illegal to jaywalk but not punishable unless you manage to cause a traffic accident, somehow. I like these pragmatic…

In the United States, having laws like that results in discriminatory policing (see many threads here). Probably less than an issue in a country that doesn't have such issues with race.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#206

Post by maxwellg »

AStonesThrow wrote: post #63

I grew up in Southern California. My parents strictly observed traffic laws, and riding in the car with them, I would often hear their disapproving gossip about pedestrians' faux pas , including wearing black at night. In high school, a classmate tried to help me loosen up a bit, and he'd encourage our group to cross a busy stroad. "They'll stop! They'll stop for you!" he assured me. He was right... I visited Catalon…

Does anyone know if beg button presses get tracked? I often wonder if pressing it increases some great counter in the sky that future city planners can use to design an intersection better.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#207

Post by Schiendelman »

julian_t wrote: post #32
IshKebab wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries obey crossing lights as strictly as you describe? I've been to lots of European countries and none were like that. Not in the way that the US is.

I'm currently in Tokyo and it is the norm to wait for the green man, even if it is a two-lane road there isn't a car in sight. I can understand waiting at one of the mega intersections, where you can barely make out the pedestrians on the other side - definitely waiting for permission to cross there.

Also currently in Tokyo. While the norm, it's starting to change! I've definitely seen a lot of younger people willing to cross against a red when it's obviously safe.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#208

Post by Schiendelman »

throwaway313373 wrote: post #184
macintux wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other comments have pointed out that intersections are difficult to cross safely because cars are coming from multiple directions, often in non-obvious ways. Between the intersections you only have two directions to worry about.

Yes, but at intersections drivers are forced to slow down and look for traffic and maybe prepare to make a turn, so you can expect them to move slower and have more situational awareness. Am I wrong?

You should be right! But you are misidentifying the problem.

The problem here is not the norm, it's the exceptions. Some drivers don't slow down or pay attention. Those are the ones that cause all the risk. While normal drivers behave better at intersections, a pedestrian can't trust that every driver will do that.

In a mid block crossing, you don't have to rely on drivers behaving a certain way, so the predictability is increased and the overall result is safer.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#209

Post by mncharity »

standardUser wrote: post #108

First, let's not forget that jaywalking is one of those "crimes" that is used as a pretense by police to harass people, usually young people and people of color. Second, as a veteran jaywalker, my rule of thumb is that if a car has to hit their breaks even a little, or otherwise alter their trajectory, you're doing it wrong. The goal should be smooth movement for all. Third, just because someone else is jaywalking do…

> rule of thumb is [...] trajectory [...] The goal should be smooth movement for all.

A more restrictive one is avoiding driver cognitive load and distraction. City driving can be exhausting. And attention budget allocated to one concern, is less available for that other thing that's about to unexpectedly bite.

> just because someone else is jaywalking does not mean you should follow them!

Another is attending to crossing as broadcast group communication. Manhattan pedestrians waiting at a light, will, quite reasonably, cue on the motion of others. Thus I might do a red-light crossing at a sprint-and-jog, solely to avoid misleading others with a "people are starting/walking across now" cue. Especially with tourists, and anyone with attention prioritized elsewhere.

Another is to threshold on benefit. Judgement errors will be made, so gate on the current case being worth that. There are people I can't comfortably walk with, because for low-payoff diagonizations, or avoiding a moment of red-light repose, they fountain social cognitive load with abandon. The pedestrian equivalent of car high-acceleration and speeding for negligible marginal progress.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#210

Post by int_19h »

vel0city wrote: post #196
int_19h wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you always drive, parking in large cities is often limited enough that you have to walk a fair bit from where you can find a spot to where you actually need to go.

You might overly be estimating your ideas of what is "urban". Tons of Americans never have to deal with crossing a street for their parking. They're not parking at some lot around the block and walking. It's all just a sea of pavement. City codes mandate each big box store has dozens of spots per shelf in the store. This on its face seems like a gross overstatement but looking at maps shows the truth of the seas of e…

I live in an American town with But many large cities don't have such city codes and have very limited parking as a result, even around large stores etc; especially not in downtown. Which, even if you don't live or work there, is still somewhere people sometimes have to go to for other reasons, from visiting a fancy restaurant to jury summons.
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