Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself • Hacker News Board

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#201

Post by ben0x539 » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 11:38 AM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #50

drcube wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain the Burning Man comment please. I'm involved in the local Burners scene, but I've never been to the the big one in Black Rock City. My wife is going this year with a friend, but she was gifted a ticket. So I would like to know what stupid decisions and exacerbated problems I will see if I decide to buy a ticket for next year's burn. Thanks.

Last year Burning Man sold out for the first time. In an attempt to alleviate the shortages, this year they had a lottery where people could request up to four tickets per person. The obvious strategy was to request more than you needed, in order to hedge your risk of losing the lottery (essentially a prisoner's dilemma situation). The utterly predictable outcome was worse shortages. They added an aftermarket to "fix…

> Since the market price is higher, this guarantees shortages.

I don't really understand this. There's obviously more people who want to see the event than there's room, so isn't that what guarantees the shortage?

Raising the price just artificially moves the point where you say "welp, can't go" from not being able to find a ticket to not being able to afford one. It doesn't really improve availability?

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#202

Post by dagw » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 12:34 PM UTC

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #173

larrys wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"more time and resources than you can jump ahead of you in line and, as a result either deny you an experience or make you pay more out of pocket for it." Isn't that the way the world works? We aren't talking about access to food, education, or healthcare here. We're talking about entertainment. Is there a particular reason why someone with more time or money shouldn't have an edge and be able to spend their money to…

Scalping is asshole behavior. It is that simple. Don't sugarcoat it in talk of 'smoothing' markets. The scalpers do not add any value to the transaction. They merely inflate the price. I'm so sick of HN over-intellectualizing topics in order to avoid the difficult discussions of ethics. I'm guessing they're avoided because (gasp) it isn't objective. The horror!

The ability to buy a ticket for a popular show at short notice on (or close to) the day of the show has real value to me, and is a service I'm occasionally willing to pay for.

For example last time I was in London I just happened to see that a band I liked was playing that evening. Having no other plans I wandered up to the venue a couple of hours before opening and a kind gentleman outside was happy to sell me a ticket. Sure I paid roughly double the value printed on the ticket, but to me it was worth it for the service and convenience.

Now I'm not saying that scalping is the best solution to this problem, but there is definitely a market here (for tickets on short notice in my case) and money to be made and value to be added.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#203

Post by drostie » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 12:49 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #171

blhack wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you would make a blanket statement about somebody learning "economics" as if that is one skill demonstrates your level of understanding here, methinks. -- I think you don't understand the culture at burning man, which is, or at least triest to be, completely decoupled from the concept of money. In fact, that is one of the 10 core principles.

The fact that you claimed that I had made assumptions that I had not in fact made demonstrates your level of understanding. Can we dismiss the snide remarks? I freely admit that I have never gone to burning man, nor could I possibly fit something like that into my life for many years. However that said, a better understanding of money and economics would ironically enable burning man to better set things up to create…

I am not sure that your proposal will work for anything with a concert-like structure -- much less, Burning Man.

The problem is precisely the one that anyone faces: irrationality. You're asking people to state their price of indifference several days from now. Many people will systematically under-report that, few will systematically over-report it. Scalpers can exploit this. There is also a systematic problem of forgetfulness; there will be some people who simply aren't part of the initial bid but want the product -- and scalpers can make money selling to them. Scalpers themselves are a sort of free-market force and free markets will not eliminate them.

We've already got a system which the scalpers found a way around: the normal economic voodoo which we use is, "sell tickets at the door, then scalpers can't sell at a profit any more." That works incredibly well for most events. It could perhaps be extended to arbitrary events if overselling were common practise, but I don't know how you'd soak up the hate of the people who Couldn't Get In The Door.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#204

Post by dagw » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 1:38 PM UTC

stonemetal wrote: post #200

blhack wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you just said assumes that there is never a secondary market. There is. That is the problem. Nobody cares about spending $400 for a ticket. To burners, that's a very tiny price to pay to get "home" for a week, and is a tiny fraction of the overall cost of the trip. If we can figure out a way (like, hello, names on tickets) to make the tickets non-transferable, then figuring our a reasonable price isn't an…

Say the tickets are $400 as you said, then everyone who got one bid > 400 dollars everyone who didn't get one claimed the most they were willing to pay is < 400 dollars. Assuming they weren't lying were is the secondary market? You are unable to sell your ticket for more than you paid for it so the secondary market acts as loss reduction device not a money making endeavor.

Only if you assume peoples situation and desires are static and that their ability for forward planning is perfect and rational. I might not be that interested in going to Burning Man 6 month out, but as the date approaches and I hear about how a whole bunch of people I know will be there then all of a sudden I'm much more willing to pay.

Or at the time of the auction I'm unemployed and worried about paying rent, then I might only be able pay $100. Then three month later I'm offered a job with a great salary, and now I'm all of a sudden willing to pay $500-600.

No matter how you structure things, there will always be people whom are willing to pay more after the fact, and as long as there is a market someone will find a way to sell to the market.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#205

Post by rmc » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 2:46 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #197

cletus wrote: post #26

This is of course interesting and will lead to inevitable comments about disruption being needed in event ticketing. Let me save you the trouble as this has been rehashed many times already: the problem here is Ticketmaster's exclusives on venues and the entertainment's willingness to let Ticketmaster be the "sacrificial anode" and focus of ire from both audiences and performers. There was a deal done some years ago-…

> Until that happens any ticketing disruption is doomed , in the US. There's a very similar reason why Spotify started in Sweden, and took years until jumping the pond. I'm not saying everything is better in Europe, and in fact I've no clue about the ticket sales situation in most European countries. But I am saying that, much as many would like to forget, innovation and market disruption is not a US monopoly.

Oh I assure you Ticketmaster is the 800 lb gorilla in the room in several European countries.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#206

Post by rmc » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 2:51 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #116

cletus wrote: post #26

This is of course interesting and will lead to inevitable comments about disruption being needed in event ticketing. Let me save you the trouble as this has been rehashed many times already: the problem here is Ticketmaster's exclusives on venues and the entertainment's willingness to let Ticketmaster be the "sacrificial anode" and focus of ire from both audiences and performers. There was a deal done some years ago-…

"Ticketmaster's exclusives on venues" Sorry for the dumb question - does this mean that nobody else can book these venues? If that is the case, can't CK (and other comedians) find a neutral venue (or a venue that is not already on Ticketmaster's list)? At least in his case, he doesn't need sophisticated venues (like the ones need for an opera, or a circus for example) Also, for disruption - can't a company buy/build…

If that is the case, can't CK (and other comedians) find a neutral venue (or a venue that is not already on Ticketmaster's list)?

Yes, that's what happens if you're still small. Now what happens if you're a mega-rock star and what to have a gig with 10,000+ people? Those venues are locked up.

can't a company buy/build a venue

Where? Which city/country? If you do that (which'll cost a fortune in up front costs), that only helps the artist in that location. What happens to the rest of their tour when they go to other cities? They have to go to Ticketmaster then.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#207

Post by mst » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 4:51 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #174

btilly wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you claimed that I had made assumptions that I had not in fact made demonstrates your level of understanding. Can we dismiss the snide remarks? I freely admit that I have never gone to burning man, nor could I possibly fit something like that into my life for many years. However that said, a better understanding of money and economics would ironically enable burning man to better set things up to create…

Ok.

I think he's spot on - Burning Man seems to me to be an attempt to create an agalmic environment in the same way that open source projects are, and the use of economics/copyright as tools to mediate the agalmia's interaction with the outside world in a manner beneficial to it are the right answer here.

I'm certainly wondering if the approach would be effective for ticket sales for community conferences and similar things, since I'd much rather any extra money that could be captured went into a relevant non-profit rather than into scalpers' pockets.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#208

Post by masterzora » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:06 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #199

cbr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dutch multi-item auction with bidding. Some events fail to sell out because they were priced too high, but others don't sell out because there's not enough interest. So you'd need to set a price floor. > If auction ends sufficiently close to the event... People don't know whether they've gotten in until after the auction ends. End it close enough to the event and people are unhappy they can't plan.

You can set minimal price in multi-item auction. You don't have to sell out for auction to end. And you don't have to sell for zero if there are not enough buyers. As for the second argument, I don't suggest ending it minutes or even hours before the event. Rather days or weeks. The point is that all people who want to go can declare how much they are willing to pay beforehand and if their best offer gets beaten by s…

Even days or weeks is insufficient. If I buy tickets to an event four months from now it is usually incredibly easy to arrange an affordable flight, for example. Or if two mutually exclusive events I am interested in have tickets go on sale at the same time right now I can pick one and purchase a ticket. If they are sold out I can pick the other event instead. With this system if I enter the auction for only one and do not win then I am screwed for the second one as well. If I enter both auctions I run the risk of purchasing both tickets.

I can imagine some other, more subtle planning issues that arise as well. Not that the system couldn't work but I think it would make for a terrible standard model.

As a sort of side-note you talk about helping the artist extract some of the money they are leaving on the table. I don't it's fair to assume that they are leaving the money there because they can't figure out "hey, if people are successfully scalping then I could make more money by charging more!" They have to look beyond a single transaction and keep in mind lower income fans that they still want to please, for example. Such fans would inevitably lose the auction for any show that sells out but some of them actually get to attend the show with the current structure.

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#209

Post by philwelch » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:27 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #196

philwelch wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they weren't doing anyone a service, they wouldn't make money.

Of course they don't and still do: through speculation, they're artificially taking control of the supply allowing them to re-set its price point without providing value. The tickets would sell all the same through the original provider at the original price, they just inserted themselves between the producer and the consumer (usually through brute-forcing the producer's ordering scheme) in order to extract wealth fr…

That's pretty much impossible. If the market clearing rate is face value, scalping tickets for more than that wouldn't be viable.

Do you think running a corner store is "parasitism"?

Re: Louis C.K. sees ticket scalping drop over 96% by selling tickets himself

#210

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 5:32 PM UTC

masterzora wrote: post #208

scotty79 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can set minimal price in multi-item auction. You don't have to sell out for auction to end. And you don't have to sell for zero if there are not enough buyers. As for the second argument, I don't suggest ending it minutes or even hours before the event. Rather days or weeks. The point is that all people who want to go can declare how much they are willing to pay beforehand and if their best offer gets beaten by s…

Even days or weeks is insufficient. If I buy tickets to an event four months from now it is usually incredibly easy to arrange an affordable flight, for example. Or if two mutually exclusive events I am interested in have tickets go on sale at the same time right now I can pick one and purchase a ticket. If they are sold out I can pick the other event instead. With this system if I enter the auction for only one and…

> If I enter both auctions I run the risk of purchasing both tickets.

This might be mitigated by allowing people to sell their tickets after auction. They'll be doing that anyway so you could even provide them with platform to do this hassle free.

> Not that the system couldn't work but I think it would make for a terrible standard model.

I think current system is much worse. The only good thing about it is that people can get cheap tickets to really great events fast if they are dedicated enough to stand in line for hours right after they begin to be sold. But that's the loss for artists because is such cases they sell tickets for too low price. Other than that only the fact that you theoretically can get tickets early and you have a lot room for planning. Current system is terrible for people who can afford to buy tickets from scalpers because the scalpers basically freeload on them by snatching tickets and keep them long enough for demand to build up and for price to raise.

You don't have to sell all tickets via the auction. You can gift some to fan associations. Distribute some through lottery. Or even keep some to sell at whatever price serves your purposes just before the show.

What auction would do and what is its greatest value in my opinion is giving the artists (and everybody else) estimate of how high the demand is and adjust price automatically.