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Accountability sinks

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Re: Accountability sinks

#201

Post by f1shy »

scrollaway wrote: post #152
jhrmnn wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person who answered couldn’t speak English. It sounds like this was the main point of failure. I’m not sure it can be considered an error in the system. I’d consider the risk inherent in traveling in a country without knowing its language.

Germany is the only country in which I’ve had 112 (emergency services) hang up on me because they couldn’t speak English. It’s worse than France in this regard.

Yes sir. A friend of mine, the girlfriend passed out, being pregnant. In the moment of total stress, we called 112, and said “passed away“ instead of „passed out“. The guy on the other side “well, if she is dead, why are you calling?!” Very rude. He went on to explain, it was an error, an instead of just dispatch an ambulance, had to hear a 10 minute lesson in english (from a german) after which the ambulance was dispatched. When the ambulance finally arrived, she was “ok” so they had to pay couple of thousand Euros for a “negligent dispatch”…

The level of arrogance and lack of empathy and service is beyond limits.

Re: Accountability sinks

#202

Post by f1shy »

jhrmnn wrote: post #153
scrollaway wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is the only country in which I’ve had 112 (emergency services) hang up on me because they couldn’t speak English. It’s worse than France in this regard.

Sure, that’s bad, and a service dealing with train ticket machine failures not available in English isn’t as bad.

Go to any museum… just brutal.

Re: Accountability sinks

#203

Post by f1shy »

aziaziazi wrote: post #159
scrollaway wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is the only country in which I’ve had 112 (emergency services) hang up on me because they couldn’t speak English. It’s worse than France in this regard.

Yes, but it’s still fine to have a customer service only answering in the official language. The chance are high that a random German speaks english so you’ll probably be good but if that’s not the case, blaming the company seems unfair to me.

Please look my comment to the parent comment. If you do find a german that speaks understandable english (that you can differentiate “think” and “sink” or “g” and “she” or “zoo” and “sue” then may be the arrogant crap that got my friend. For that they receive years of “Ausbildung”…

Re: Accountability sinks

#204

Post by f1shy »

kleiba wrote: post #195
aziaziazi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it’s still fine to have a customer service only answering in the official language. The chance are high that a random German speaks english so you’ll probably be good but if that’s not the case, blaming the company seems unfair to me.

> The chance are high that a random German speaks English Not sure how random my selection process was, but that certainly wasn't my experience when I lived in Germany a few years ago. Maybe in big cities, yes. But even in the burbs, chances are you have to look for the metaphorical needle in the haystack to find someone speaking English. Your best bet might just be teenagers and young adults.

Absolutely. There is a big myth that “germans (all?) speak good English“ and nothing can be further from the truth. There are good ones, sure, maybe even more percent than other places, but go out of Berlin, Hamburg, Munich… and good luck!!!

Re: Accountability sinks

#205

Post by heresie-dabord »

bigiain wrote: post #42
alilleybrinker wrote: post #15

Cathy O'Neil's "Weapons of Math Destruction" (2016, Penguin Random House) is a good companion to this concept, covering the "accountability sink" from the other side of those constructing or overseeing systems. Cathy argues that the use of algorithm in some contexts permits a new scale of harmful and unaccountable systems that ought to be reigned in. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/241363/weapons-of-m...

Brings to mind old wisdom: "A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer must never make a Management Decision." IBM presentation, 1979

> presentation, 1979

= Presentation, 21st Century

A computer is not alive. A computer system is a tool that can do harm. It can be disconnected or unplugged like any tool in a machine shop that begins to do harm or damage. But a tool is not responsible. Only people are responsible. Accountability is anchored in reality by personal cost.

= Notes

Management calculates the cost of not unplugging the computer that is doing harm. Management often calculates that it is possible to pay the monetary cost for the harm done.

People in management will abdicate personal responsibility. People try to avoid paying personal cost.

We often hold people accountable by forcing them to give back (e.g. community service, monetary fines, return of property), by sacrificing their reputation in one or more domains, by putting them in jail (they pay with their time), or in some societies, by putting them to death ("pay" with their lives).

Accountability is anchored in reality by personal cost.

Re: Accountability sinks

#206

Post by RandomLensman »

Dilettante_ wrote: post #193
RandomLensman wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German mail rail and track operator (Deutsche Bahn) isn't private but 100% state owned (and control sits with the federal government). They wanted to privatize it a couple of decades ago but abandoned it. There is still some hybridization between supposedly it being a business and also a public service left in the law, though.

The Deutsche Bahn AG is in fact a private Aktiengesellschaft(which is to say a stock company) with the german gov't owning 100% of the shares. I'd very much argue that it is run mostly like a private enterprise and only occasionally compelled by the government to act like a public service.

Yes, but doesn't change that it is 100% state owned and controlled with a mixed mandate (business/public service - see art 87e GG). No reason to absolve the owner and the associated politics from their responsibilities.

The legal form doesn't determine whether something is state owned or private.

Re: Accountability sinks

#207

Post by RandomLensman »

atoav wrote: post #194
RandomLensman wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German mail rail and track operator (Deutsche Bahn) isn't private but 100% state owned (and control sits with the federal government). They wanted to privatize it a couple of decades ago but abandoned it. There is still some hybridization between supposedly it being a business and also a public service left in the law, though.

You sure the ~600 companies that the Deutsche Bahn is made up of can be compared to one state-owned entity?

All rolls up into one 100% owner and having a lot of subsidiaries isn't unusual.

Re: Accountability sinks

#209

Post by yxhuvud »

There has been a lot of talk of silos in the company I work for and the need to break them down. This looks like it could be a big part of why they have been so hard to tackle.

Re: Accountability sinks

#210

Post by yxhuvud »

jhrmnn wrote: post #153
scrollaway wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is the only country in which I’ve had 112 (emergency services) hang up on me because they couldn’t speak English. It’s worse than France in this regard.

Sure, that’s bad, and a service dealing with train ticket machine failures not available in English isn’t as bad.

Ticket machines are still something foreigners can be expected to interact and need help with.
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