Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry. I meant obscure relative to the large space of combinatorial optimization problems not just chip design. Most design houses don’t write their own macro placers but customize commercial flows for their designs. The problem with macro placement as an RL technology demonstrator is that to evaluate quality you need to go through large parts of the design flow which involves using other commercial tools. This makes…
> Most design houses don’t write their own macro placers but customize commercial flows for their designs. Most I don't know, but all the mid-to-large ones have automated macro placers. Obviously, the output is introduced into the commercial flow, generally by setting placement constraints. The larger houses go much further and may even override specific parts of the flow, but not basing it on an commercial flow is o…
How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
201–210 of 215 posts
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#202Seems to me the article is claiming a lot of things, but is very light on actual comparisons that matter to you and me, namely: how does one of those fabled AI-designed chop compare to their competition ? For example, how much better are these latest gen TPU's when compared to NVidia's equivalent offering ?
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
FD: I have been following this whole thing for a while, and know personally a number of the people involved. The AlphaChip authors address criticism in their addendum, and in a prior statement from the co-lead authors: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08032-5 , https://www.annagoldie.com/home/statement - The 2023 ISPD paper didn't pre-train at all. This means no learning from experience, for a learning-base…
In reinforcement learning pre-training reduces peak performance. We can argue about this, but it is not a sufficiently strong point to stop reading from alone.
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are now using multiple new accounts based on the name of one of the authors (Anna Goldie) and her husband (Gabriel). First this one ('gabegobblegoldi'), and then 'anna-gabriella'. I think it is time for you to take a deep breath and think about what you are doing and why. You seem to be obsessed with the idea that this work is overrated. MediaTek and Google don't think so, and use it in production for their chips…
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Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#205I'm pretty sure Cadence and Synopsys have both released reinforcement-learning-based placing and floor planning tools. How do they compare...?
Still, the fact that Google uses it for TPU is pretty telling - this is a multi-billion dollar, mission-critical chip design effort, and there's no way they'd make TPU worse just to prop up a research paper. MediaTek's production use is also a good indicator.
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#206Meanwhile, MediaTek built on AlphaChip and is using it widely, and announced that it was used to help design Dimensity 5G (4nm technology node size).
I can understand that, when this open-source method first came out, there were some who were skeptical, but we are way beyond that now -- the evidence is just overwhelming.
I'm going to paste here the quotes from the bottom of the blog post, as it seems like a lot of people have missed them:
“AlphaChip’s groundbreaking AI approach revolutionizes a key phase of chip design. At MediaTek, we’ve been pioneering chip design’s floorplanning and macro placement by extending this technique in combination with the industry’s best practices. This paradigm shift not only enhances design efficiency, but also sets new benchmarks for effectiveness, propelling the industry towards future breakthroughs.” --SR Tsai, Senior Vice President of MediaTek
“AlphaChip has inspired an entirely new line of research on reinforcement learning for chip design, cutting across the design flow from logic synthesis to floor planning, timing optimization and beyond. While the details vary, key ideas in the paper including pretrained agents that help guide online search and graph network based circuit representations continue to influence the field, including my own work on RL for logic synthesis. If not already, this work is poised to be one of the landmark papers in machine learning for hardware design.” --Siddharth Garg, Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering, NYU
"AlphaChip demonstrates the remarkable transformative potential of Reinforcement Learning (RL) in tackling one of the most complex hardware optimization challenges: chip floorplanning. This research not only extends the application of RL beyond its established success in game-playing scenarios to practical, high-impact industrial challenges, but also establishes a robust baseline environment for benchmarking future advancements at the intersection of AI and full-stack chip design. The work's long-term implications are far-reaching, illustrating how hard engineering tasks can be reframed as new avenues for AI-driven optimization in semiconductor technology." --Vijay Janapa Reddi, John L. Loeb Associate Professor of Engineering and Applied Sciences, Harvard University
“Reinforcement learning has profoundly influenced electronic design automation (EDA), particularly by addressing the challenge of data scarcity in AI-driven methods. Despite obstacles including delayed rewards and limited generalization, research has proven reinforcement learning's capability in complex electronic design automation tasks such as floorplanning. This seminal paper has become a cornerstone in reinforcement learning-electronic design automation research and is frequently cited, including in my own work that received the Best Paper Award at the 2023 ACM Design Automation Conference.” --Professor Sung-Kyu Lim, Georgia Institute of Technology
"There are two major forces that are playing a pivotal role in the modern era: semiconductor chip design and AI. This research charted a new path and demonstrated ideas that enabled the electronic design automation (EDA) community to see the power of AI and reinforcement learning for IC design. It has had a seminal impact in the field of AI for chip design and has been critical in influencing our thinking and efforts around establishing a major research conference like IEEE LLM-Aided Design (LAD) for discussion of such impactful ideas." --Ruchir Puri, Chief Scientist, IBM Research; IBM Fellow
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with the Google Nature paper is that its results were not reproduced outside Google. You can attack attempts to reproduce but that only reinforces the point: those claimed results cannot be trusted. Other commenters already addressed the pre-training issue. Please kindly include a link to Kahng's 2023 discussion addressing your complaints. Otherwise, you are unfairly supporting those people you know. Kahn…
For a more thorough discussion on pre-training, see this ISPD 2022 paper by the AlphaChip people: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3505170.3511478 As for external usage of the method - MediaTek is one of the largest chip design companies in the world, and they built on AlphaChip. There's a quote from a MediaTek SVP at the bottom of the GDM blog post: "AlphaChip's groundbreaking AI approach revolutionizes a key phas…
The more marketing claims we see, the less compelling the Google story is.
Your perseverance is as admirable as it is suspicious. You are the lonely voice here defending the Google announcement.
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#208This work from Google (original Nature paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03544-w ) has been credibly criticized by several researchers in the EDA CAD discipline. These papers are of interest: - A rebuttal by a researcher within Google who wrote this at the same time as the "AlphaChip" work was going on ("Stronger Baselines for Evaluating Deep Reinforcement Learning in Chip Placement"): http://47.190.8…
What is your opinion of the addendum? I think the addendum and the pre-trained checkpoint are the substance of the announcement, and it is surprising to see little mention of those here.
Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#209Re: How AlphaChip transformed computer chip design
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a more thorough discussion on pre-training, see this ISPD 2022 paper by the AlphaChip people: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3505170.3511478 As for external usage of the method - MediaTek is one of the largest chip design companies in the world, and they built on AlphaChip. There's a quote from a MediaTek SVP at the bottom of the GDM blog post: "AlphaChip's groundbreaking AI approach revolutionizes a key phas…
Science is not done by quotes from VPs, and we don't know how MediaTek used these methods. Also, would you like to hear from VPs who wasted their company resources on Google RL and gave up? The more marketing claims we see, the less compelling the Google story is. Your perseverance is as admirable as it is suspicious. You are the lonely voice here defending the Google announcement.
Even if the AlphaChip authors redid Kahng's study properly, this still wouldn't give us useful information -- what matters is AlphaChip's ability to optimize chips in a real-life, production setting, for modern chips, where millions of dollars are on the line.