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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

201–210 of 514 posts

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#201
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

> I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. The jury makes that determination after being locked in a room and forced to hear both sides and all the evidence. How much of the evidence are you aware of? What The Innocence Project posted? This thread is full of people who are anti-death penalty…

The prosecutor's office and the victim's family both pushed to stop the execution due to reasonable doubt. Think they might have an idea of the available evidence?

The previous governor had begun an inquiry into the matter but the new governor shut that board down and blocked any and all attempts to halt the execution.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sentencing a man to death when there is reasonable doubt of his guilt is a miscarriage of justice. "A crime scene covered with forensic evidence contained no link to Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams has been seeking to prove his innocence throughout the 23 years he has spent on Missouri’s death row. On August 11, 1998, Felicia Gayle, a former reporter for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, was found stabbed to death in her home.…

[flagged]

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think the far more compelling detail is the one you overlooked: > Their statements were inconsistent with their own prior statements, with each other’s accounts, and with the crime scene evidence, and none of the information they provided could be independently verified. Not only were the two known liars, but their accounts could not be verified, and they conflict with each other as well as the existing evide…

The quote > neither revealed any information that was not either included in media accounts about the case or already known to the police. from The Innocence Project seems carefully worded to imply that they didn't say anything that mattered, while still leaving open that they provided information that the police had, but which had not be publicly released.

It's worded that way as if one side of the interview knows something, it can easily leak to the other side intentionally or accidentally.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#205
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are severely misunderstanding the role of DNA evidence here - you suggest that those arguing for Williams' innocence (including The Innocence Project) rely solely on the absence of DNA evidence linking Williams to the crime. However, this misrepresents the argument. The absence of DNA evidence is significant not because DNA is expected to be found in every case, but because other substantial forensic evidence (fi…

I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent anything. Your argument, and The Innocence Project's, seems to be that a lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene constitutes reasonable doubt. I disagree, and so did the jury. > When it comes to fundamental principles of criminal law like "reasonable doubt" your subjective opinion is irrelevant, what matters is what objectively creates reasonable doubt. Th…

>I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent anything. Your argument, and The Innocence Project's, seems to be that a lack of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene constitutes reasonable doubt. I disagree, and so did the jury.

Wrong. The point isn't that the mere absence of physical evidence tying the accused to the crime scene inherently constitutes reasonable doubt. Rather, the argument is that the presence of substantial forensic evidence at the crime scene that explicitly does not match the accused introduces significant reasonable doubt.

In Marcellus Williams' case, the key issue is that the forensic evidence collected: including DNA, fingerprints, and other traces, clearly does not match him. This is NOT merely an absence of evidence but a _direct contradiction of the hypothesis_ that he was present at the crime scene. This kind of conflicting evidence challenges the prosecution's narrative and thereby substantiates the reasonable doubt about Williams' guilt.

The role of the jury is to interpret evidence and decide whether it meets the standard of 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' However, when forensic evidence actively contradicts key aspects of the prosecution's case, it is not just a minor detail but a fundamental flaw in the argument for guilt. This isn't about creating arbitrary thresholds but about ensuring that convictions are based on clear and convincing evidence that aligns with all the facts, not just those that fit the prosecution's narrative.

>Where in criminal law does it say "if there's no clear forensic data then you can't convict someone?" You just made that up!

At no point did I claim that a lack of forensic evidence automatically prevents a conviction. What I have consistently highlighted is that when forensic evidence actively contradicts the prosecution’s case, such as not matching the accused, it significantly fuels reasonable doubt.

>And the justice system is subjective. It's not a formally specified algorithm that decides guilt or innocence. It's a jury deciding a fuzzy boundary ("reasonable doubt").

While it's true that the justice system involves human judgment and isn't a formally specified algorithm, this doesn’t mean that the standards for determining guilt should be vague or arbitrarily interpreted. The concept of "reasonable doubt" is determined by a jury, but it's guided by very specific legal standards and precedents that ensure fairness and consistency across cases. Describing reasonable doubt as a "fuzzy boundary" is reductionist and misrepresents the rigorous process by which evidence is evaluated. Jurors are instructed with detailed criteria on how to weigh evidence and what "beyond a reasonable doubt" entails. These instructions are designed to minimize subjectivity as much as possible.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#206
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the messaging has shifted to he's innocent, where I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. I don't believe in the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the authority to execute citizens and even moreso when a very high bar of culpability has…

> I believe the right message (and far less viral message), is the government has not shown enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the death penalty is warranted. The jury makes that determination after being locked in a room and forced to hear both sides and all the evidence. How much of the evidence are you aware of? What The Innocence Project posted? This thread is full of people who are anti-death penalty…

> This thread is full of people who are anti-death penalty

Who even argues in favor of it? What studies shows that the death penalty is effective? Who has done cost benefit analysis for civic life to have the government executing people generally speaking? So many truthy arguments on behalf of the death penalty.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#207
I applaud the Innocence Project for taking this case, but honestly, Missouri? What did they expect? This is the same governor that tried to prosecute a newspaper reporter after they uncovered social security numbers in the HTML code from a state-run website. Then, when the governor was informed about how stupid his claim was, he doubled-down, insisting he would seek prosecution.

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1046124278/missouri-newspaper...

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sentencing a man to death when there is reasonable doubt of his guilt is a miscarriage of justice. "A crime scene covered with forensic evidence contained no link to Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams has been seeking to prove his innocence throughout the 23 years he has spent on Missouri’s death row. On August 11, 1998, Felicia Gayle, a former reporter for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, was found stabbed to death in her home.…

Doesn't a conviction imply that it is beyond reasonable doubt?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#209
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

[flagged]

I don't think it follows. If someone is convicted of 15 counts of felony tax evasion, that doesn't mean they're guilty of any other crime they're accused of (including a 16th count of tax evasion—but set that aside). Especially not murder. You need more information other than their rap sheet to conclude someone is guilty.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#210

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

Also, it's often the same people who claim to be "pro life".

As in: "Only God can administer life and death, so stop those abortions or we'll set on fire your clinic and kill the doctors". Psychology can explain completely that behavior, however this is not the right place for such discussions.
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