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Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

shwin.co

201–210 of 372 posts

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#201

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

> ...experts suck at empathizing with learners... Or maybe we just don't want to coddle them. When has learning anything been easy, and why do you expect people to be able to acquire new knowledge and skills without putting in the effort? It shouldn't be grueling, not for its own sake, but yeah, you might have to stare at a compiler error for a few hours or even a few days before you figure out what's broken. Truly,…

Perhaps I worded it too emotionally. I mean that experts struggle to remember what it was like before they understood something. It’s very common for experts to ask novices to make leaps that they aren’t capable of making, because they seem natural or obvious from an expert POV.

I’m all for hard work; learning is usually very hard work. I also think we need expert guidance.

But let’s make the difficulty useful/effective rather than counterproductive.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#202
Friendly reminder: This blog post represents a software engineer's personal opinion on creativity, upvoted here by fellow software engineers.

No studies are cited. The assertions are corroborated by the author's personal experience.

Take its claims with a grain of salt.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#203
I think this analysis as a bit guilty of over-fitting -- it is quite easy to rote memorize a bunch of things while having little to no understanding of what they are or how they work. Trivial examples include training a room of people to memorize a series of facts written in a language they don't speak (the fact that they have memorized doesn't at all mean they have any understanding of the content). So I would say it's not memorization per say, but meaningful exposure to a thing, the more chances you have to meaningfully interact with a thing, the higher the chance is you will learn how to manipulate it and do things with it. This is the difference between understanding and mere memorization, and the more exposure you have, the greater the chance you will start to see the patterns and understand, versus focusing your efforts on memorizing which will just lead to over-fitting and not understanding. As with NNs, so with humans.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#204
post #192
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing" Sorry, but this is memoization.

> > and builds model > memoization Was this intentional and no one caught on? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoization Or just a typo?

Typo. Funny typo given we're on hn.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#205

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

Memorize means "to retain in and quickly recall from memory". Weather that is by synthetic or natural process is irrelevant. From the point of understanding how memory and recall work, yes burning your hand is an act of memorization. Sure there is a natural repetitive process that leads to base learning like L1 you mention. On the other hand no one adds or multiples enough in daily life for natural memory formation.…

I’d say that’s the definition of “remember” rather than “memorize.”

To most people I’d wager “memorize” has a strong connotation for the synthetic version only, with an emphasis on a stripping-out of context.

I recognize that stripping away context can be valuable—-drilling a tennis serve over and over outside the real-time context of a game is extremely helpful.

Flashcards are rarely valuable in the same way. For semantically oriented tasks, an impoverished context is usually not very helpful. Receptive skills like letter and character recognition might be an exception. But even then you’ve got to make the leap to reading at some point.

> no one adds or multiplies enough in daily life for natural memory formation

To the contrary, there’s a fascinating study of children in South America who had very fluent mental math skills for making change because they sold fruit on the side of the road. They couldn’t solve the exact same problem in story problem format in a classroom, though. Synthetic contexts usually don’t transfer well to real life.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#206

Friendly reminder: This blog post represents a software engineer's personal opinion on creativity, upvoted here by fellow software engineers. No studies are cited. The assertions are corroborated by the author's personal experience. Take its claims with a grain of salt.

^ 100x this, absolutely

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#207

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

You are changing the definition of memory we have had for like 25 centuries in the West. That is your choice but there is no stretching on the other side.

“To me” is not what defines what something is.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#208
post #139

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

> It’s the difference between drilling vocabulary flashcards and actually reading, listening, or talking to someone. Those are not opposite activities. Drilling vocabulary flashcard is the most efficient way to start being able to read/listen/speak; and it's not even clear from research that output (speaking and writing) is useful at all for learning. Also good luck learning to read Chinese or Japanese without rote l…

> and it's not even clear from research that output (speaking and writing) is useful at all for learning.

Only if your goals don’t include being able to speak or write.

> You can’t be serious advocating “just go read stuff”

True, not “just.” And Chinese is particularly tricky because the ideograms convey little to no phonetic information. Even so, almost any activity I can imagine seems superior to traditional flashcards. Photo flashcards (vs. translation), listening along to highlighted text or closed captions, deciphering street signs or memes, even the written drills you mentioned. (Or better, “write 5 phrases that all start with character X”). Our brains crave meaning, and flashcards offer very little of it.

> even native speakers learn them by repetition

No argument there, most everything is learned by repetition, but I’m interested in context. Native speakers already know the verbal form of most words they’re learning to write, even in Chinese. I’d argue the meaning is stronger.

> life of a toddler is vastly different than an adult

True. The scale of their learning tasks are much bigger than ours. They have to learn that they exist, that their family exists, that they can vocalize, that language is a thing, that they want and need things, and that they can get them by communicating.

> An adult has much less time for that

I think this is a good entry point to the core of the issue for me—-small children don’t “set aside time to learn,” they just learn. You and I do this also, though it’s less novel and flexible and therefore maybe less salient. I think we place too much value on structured or synthetic learning as “real” learning when in fact it’s often extremely inefficient compared to our natural learning tendencies.

There’s a spectrum of structure, starting with what we choose to pay attention to, to an open-ended “study time,” to guided classroom activities, to timed math drills. Flashcards are at the extreme reductivist end of that spectrum. I suspect we like them because they’re easy to understand, uniform, predictable, and convenient to create and use. Creating more effective learning opportunities and supports is substantially harder, but generally worthwhile IMO.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#209

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

The EEs I have known that carried around a card with: V = I * R I = V / R R = V / I because they couldn't remember it were all bad at EE and bad at math. If you can't remember the pieces making up a concept, how are you going to remember the concept? > It’s disproportionately important for passing tests (And getting hired at tech companies!) I don't remember anyone who couldn't pass tests but was really a great engin…

> There are questions like max takeoff weight, fuel burn rate, max dive speeds, etc. Stuff a pilot had better know or he's a dead pilot.

You don't want a pilot who is creative when it comes to max takeoff weight.

Obviously there are good reasons to memorize certain things, creativity just isn't one of them.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#210

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

>OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.”

They "stretch" it to its dictionary definition?

>The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization

It still is a kind of memorization, just not a voluntary one. And such learning is still is a very important function of mental development and evolutionary fitness, that shouldn't just be shunned "because trauma".

>Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to drill exposure to an abstract representation of a concept, that somehow we will absorb the concept itself

Well, I see your cargo cult and I raise you tried-and-true.

"Absorbing the concept itself" might take more effort (including personal, for logistical reasons, not everything can be tailored to the individual learner, who might not even care enough for learning compared to all kinds of diversions, and have zero passion for the subjects, even if a clone with the teaching skills of Feynman with the presentation skills of Tonny Robbins, and the passionate conviction of Jean D' Arc was to present it to them.

But absorbing the concept is not enough, there needs to be instant recall, or at least fast enough recall) of all kinds of facts and factoids and tables, and also this "absorbing" also needs to encompass boring concepts, that are nonetheless crucial, if one is to be succesful in anything technical or scientific, or generally creative in any sort of organized way that combines concepts and information (not just Jackson Pollocking away).

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